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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 10, 2015 at 9:43 pm
(April 10, 2015 at 9:36 pm)Bad Wolf Wrote: Not only was your post incoherent, it was completely irrelevant to the point of Pascal's wager. Nothing you said was relevant or even linked to what I said. Do you, or do you not, worry about any other religions and their versions of hell?
Well, insofar as "the destiny of man is perpetual self- and world-improvement in nature, virtue, and happiness," no, I do not in the context of this discussion and the original post worry about other versions of hell and other conceptions of the afterlife, because I find the conception I have proposed to be most plausible.
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 10, 2015 at 9:52 pm
(This post was last modified: April 10, 2015 at 9:53 pm by Bad Wolf.)
(April 10, 2015 at 9:43 pm)datc Wrote: Well, insofar as "the destiny of man is perpetual self- and world-improvement in nature, virtue, and happiness," no, I do not in the context of this discussion and the original post worry about other versions of hell and other conceptions of the afterlife, because I find the conception I have proposed to be most plausible.
Cutting through the bullshit, so no, you don't worry about other religions and their hells. And the reason you don't is because you don't believe any other religion to be true. But you don't know this. You don't know if your religion is the right one. You don't know if the Muslims are right or the Jews or the Hindus or damn Moonies. And that is why Pascal's wager fails. What if there is a god who invented all these other religions simply to test us, and he rewards the skeptical thinking unbelievers and punishes believers? You haven't even considered that. That is why you and Pascal fail.
Please read through this, it gives many reasons why Pascal's wager fails:
http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...%27s_Wager
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 10, 2015 at 9:55 pm
(This post was last modified: April 10, 2015 at 10:02 pm by datc.)
(April 10, 2015 at 9:42 pm)Nestor Wrote: I want to believe ...
I want to believe a lot of things. It doesn't mean I can have them, and it doesn't mean they are true. You don't like it? Tough shit. Try to make this world, the one you know exists in some fashion, better to whatever extent your abilities allow, instead of wasting your time construing ad hoc assurances in another that you can only ever imagine in your head. The correct wager is not a rejection of a unfathomably enjoyable phantom world, it's an acceptance of this terrifying yet awesome concrete one.
(1) Failing to countenance evil and ugliness or (2) the rationality of the desire to be omnipotent, are not assumptions in the argument we are considering.
I accept this world in all its indeed "terrifying yet awesome" aspects. However, I suggest that at the end of the ride, there is something beyond; and moreover, it may be a good strategy to bet on it, even if you are unsure what to think.
Thanks to all who participated. I have gained from this discussion and hope you have, in your own way, too.
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 10, 2015 at 10:17 pm
(April 10, 2015 at 9:55 pm)datc Wrote: Thanks to all who participated. I have gained from this discussion
It's painfully obvious that that is a lie. You clearly haven't learned anything.
'The more I learn about people the more I like my dog'- Mark Twain
'You can have all the faith you want in spirits, and the afterlife, and heaven and hell, but when it comes to this world, don't be an idiot. Cause you can tell me you put your faith in God to put you through the day, but when it comes time to cross the road, I know you look both ways.' - Dr House
“Young earth creationism is essentially the position that all of modern science, 90% of living scientists and 98% of living biologists, all major university biology departments, every major science journal, the American Academy of Sciences, and every major science organization in the world, are all wrong regarding the origins and development of life….but one particular tribe of uneducated, bronze aged, goat herders got it exactly right.” - Chuck Easttom
"If my good friend Doctor Gasparri speaks badly of my mother, he can expect to get punched.....You cannot provoke. You cannot insult the faith of others. You cannot make fun of the faith of others. There is a limit." - Pope Francis on freedom of speech
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 10, 2015 at 10:23 pm
(April 10, 2015 at 9:55 pm)datc Wrote: I accept this world in all its indeed "terrifying yet awesome" aspects. However, I suggest that at the end of the ride, there is something beyond; and moreover, it may be a good strategy to bet on it, even if you are unsure what to think.
So you are basically stating that you believe in something beyond yet you cannot provide any evidence for such, yet we should all believe the same as you just because.
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 10, 2015 at 11:07 pm
Let's then summarize:
(April 10, 2015 at 10:23 pm)Sionnach Wrote: So you are basically stating that you believe in something beyond yet you cannot provide any evidence for such, yet we should all believe the same as you just because.
It was never part of the argument to provide specific evidence for the afterlife; in fact, Pascal's wager explicitly depends on this evidence being inconclusive.
My claim is that if there is an afterlife, then it is in general something like what I have described, and it stands up to objections, unlike Valhalla or the Greek underworld. The many unknowns here I acknowledge but insist on those parts of my idea that I cleared up.
If then afterlife exists, then attaining it would usually entail explicitly aiming at it and thus, extending belief to it in active life when building one's soul, just as an engineer extends belief to physics when building a bridge.
Little is lost if it turns out there is no afterlife and you aim for it; much is gained if there is and you aim for it; much is lost if there is and you fail to aim at it (thereby continuously being reincarnated to try -- and fail -- again and again or whatever).
Hence, the rationality of wagering on eternal life and the concept of God that flows from it, as I outlined earlier in the thread.
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 11, 2015 at 2:31 am
I'm still confused as to what difference you think belief in an afterlife should have on the way a person lives, and why this belief makes the slightest difference in whether or not we are granted entry if it turns out that death is not actually the end of our subjective experience. If you think I would behave differently if I knew I was going to heaven, you have a most cringe-worthy opportunistic approach to the choices you make.
He who loves God cannot endeavour that God should love him in return - Baruch Spinoza
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 11, 2015 at 2:37 am
I'm about ready to shove Pascal and his wager so far up my butt I can clean my teeth with them.
If you're just assuming the christian version of things is true, it's absolutely nothing to do with Pascal's wager.
Anyone can make a load of unsupported assertions about things we can know nothing about. Until we have a way of investigating these things, such as the afterlife, or finding out whether they even exist at all, it is pure story telling and fantasy.
This all comes down to, "I don't want to die. Give me more life."
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 11, 2015 at 3:39 am
(This post was last modified: April 11, 2015 at 3:47 am by Thumpalumpacus.)
I'm still waiting for evidence of eternal life of any sort. Something tells me datc will conveniently ignore this difficult question as he lavishes his time expounding upon the mysteries of earning the eternal life he cannot demonstrate.
Me, I don't make life-decisions on the basis of undemonstrated hypotheticals. If eternal life cannot be demonstrated, I will live as if it is not possible, which all evidence indicates is the case.
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RE: Pascal's Wager Revisited
April 11, 2015 at 5:31 am
(This post was last modified: April 11, 2015 at 5:33 am by Ravenshire.)
(April 10, 2015 at 9:55 pm)datc Wrote: Thanks to all who participated. I have gained from this discussion and hope you have, in your own way, too.
Care to elaborate on exactly what you've learned, or shall we go with Bad Wolf's deduction that your lying about it?
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
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