JW looking for clarity

[TubbyTubby]

I have a question...

Do you know any good knock-knock jokes?

"Heywood"

[Heywood]

I have a question...

Do you know any good knock-knock jokes?

"Heywood"

Whose there?

[Alex K]

I have a question...

Do you know any good knock-knock jokes?

Knock knock

Who's there?

Jay!

Jay who?

Vaswitness

[robvalue]

Knock knock!

Who's there?

Someone who can't see the doorbell apparently.

[Alex K]

Knock knock!

Who's there?

Someone who can't see the doorbell apparently.

Or possibly your jewish orthodox neighbor looking for a shabbes goy.

[TubbyTubby]

"Heywood"

Whose there?

"Heywood"

[abaris]

God's immorality in the bible - I know this is a favorite of many atheist. I remember Matt from the atheist experience podcast once saying that he is more moral than god because of the things that god condoned in the bible. First of all, if you can be a MORE moral person that implies a moral BEST. If there is a moral best, then that implies absolute morals. And second of all, Matt's point was that even if there was a god he would be proud that he didn't serve him in any way. But then he would kind of be proving the bibles point that men fell away because they thought they knew better... Also, I don't believe that the bible reflects gods ideal condition. I don't believe the mosaic law was a perfect law. But I do believe that it could be argued that the mosaic law was the best possible law for an imperfect system.

You're missing the point here. Yes, god is shown to be a highly vindictive and cruel bastard in the bible and it's not hard to be more moral than this god by simply being a decent person. But the whole thing points in another and ultimately more important direction. You certainly would agree that Zeus, Odin, Isis or Osiris are made up by human beings and they are. But same hold true for the god of the bible. He didn't create humans in his image, humans created him in their's. It's true for every deity that ever existed in the minds of their followers. They all have their very human vices and they all are a mirror of the time and the culture they have been created for.
So god mirrors the moral code of a Middle Eastern half nomadic people from the beginning of the Iron Age. The surprising thing isn't that he turned out the way he's described it's the fact that a lot of people still think we can learn something from these tales.

[Bob Kelso]

Hello all. This is my first post.

Hello! 

I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have been agnostic for about a year now. I am open minded for either belief or non belief in god.

If you don't mind my asking; how long have you been with the JW? Just curious as to whether you grew up into it (as I did in a Southern Baptist home) or if you were converted. If it's the latter, how old were you and what led to your conversion?

I have read a lot on atheist forums and also christian apologetics websites. My favorite is William Lane Craig. I am sure he has some haters here but regardless, he is one of the smartest mind on the theist side. His greatest skill in my mind, is how well he deconstructs bad/faulty arguments of those on the atheist side. But I know that someone can win a debate and still be wrong.

I've found that I can tolerate Craig for a much longer length of time than any other apologist, which isn't saying much, but he's just terrible argumentation wrapped up in verbose bread. 

I just want help from others that might have similar experience with being a strong believer in any faith and then coming to clarity.

 

It took me a long period of introspection and a thorough inspection of Christianity to reach an atheistic viewpoint (Southern Baptist indoctrination will do that to you). So I'm always up for an empathetic talk or two. 

For me, the simple, "show me evidence of god" argument is lacking. I don't believe that a deity that by logic would be a being that transcends space and time as we know it would be easily defined in that space and time.

An all powerful deity should have no issue presenting itself.  

I just struggle the most with the fact that it seems like this universe had a start. And the other part that I struggle with, is that it seems like humanity is on a death spiral. I have read that this is a relatively peaceful time in human history and we have so many advances here and there. But when you look at global warming, nuclear warfare capabilities, worsening poverty issues, etc... it feel like humans will be bring on their own death within the next 100 years or so.

I'm not seeing the need for a deity here, the universe had a beginning and humanity fucks up left and right to the point that we may wipe ourselves out. And? 

Some other things that will have no effect on me...

Bashing JWs- I believe strongly that JW's are great people that do have many faults in the organization and the people but overall it is a group of people that try their best to be good hardworking fellow citizens. And I know  all the history that you can find in 10 seconds on google. I don't believe its a cult and that they use brain washing as a tactic.

 You're welcome to your interpretation of your group, just don't expect anyone on the outside to agree. The JWs I've dealt with have all been door to door salesmen, and those interactions weren't pleasant even when I made the attempt to be nice, and the way they treat the excommunicated is just downright shameful. 

God's immorality in the bible - I know this is a favorite of many atheist. I remember Matt from the atheist experience podcast once saying that he is more moral than god because of the things that god condoned in the bible. First of all, if you can be a MORE moral person that implies a moral BEST. If there is a moral best, then that implies absolute morals.

Not necessarily, even in a subjective morality there are gradients. 

And second of all, Matt's point was that even if there was a god he would be proud that he didn't serve him in any way. But then he would kind of be proving the bibles point that men fell away because they thought they knew better... Also, I don't believe that the bible reflects gods ideal condition. I don't believe the mosaic law was a perfect law. But I do believe that it could be argued that the mosaic law was the best possible law for an imperfect system.

You can believe whatever you like, but I would expect far better results from a deity that claims perfection.   

"Matter cannot be created or destroyed" - Arguments like this are a laymans understanding of physical laws. I am a layman so I try not to get into such arguments. But I know that if it was such a good argument. then more atheist in the public world would employ it more often. From my lay understanding, some physical laws were not set until some time after the universe came into existence. 

Please also feel free to ask any questions about what Jehovah's witnesses believe. Thanks!

Thanks for posting!

[Alex K]

No, Heywood, conservation of energy is an observational fact. Within our universe, it *could* even be violated by a new type of as yet undiscovered forces or some such. It's not something that is even defined before there is a universe.

What existed before there was a universe?  The same thing that exists now.  Reality.  Why wouldn't the same rules that apply to reality today also apply to reality before there was a universe?  Do we have any reason whatsoever to believe that realities and their sub realities are not self similar?

I'm not familiar with the conservation of energy  proves god argument.  However if you are basing your refutation of it on speculation that conservation of energy might now always hold....I find that to be a stretch....and a really weak refutation.

Ok, let's back up a little. Do we assume that time exists independent from the universe, sort of as a frame on which creation happens? If no, then the notion of energy does not exist without the universe and hence there is no argument. If yes, we can talk.

In general relativity, conservation laws of any kind pertaining to particles are related to symmetries, e.g of spacetime, and conservation of energy is violated in nature because spacetime is not static - just think
of cosmological red shift, which steals energy from photons. Now, the curvature of spacetime can be assigned energy in order to compensate, and in fact in our current universe, it contains negative energy in this picture. The total energy of this universe can be zero, so it could even be created without violating energy conservation. In absence of space but in the presence of time, who knows though, what contributions to energy there are - our current notion of conserved energy breaks down in absence of space.

[TubbyTubby]

Whose there?

"Heywood"

Ok I'll finish it.

Heywood who?

Heywood Jablome

Was that here or TTA?

Welcome OP.