Murder mystery: what killed Christianity in Europe?

[FatAndFaithless]

Centuries of top-down imposed government sponsored religion and the resulting 'divine' conflicts against other equally devout populations probably engendered a sense of mistrust towards religion, and eventually people realized they simply didn't need it.

Religion flourishes in America precisely because there is no 'official' religion, so the marketplace of ideas is up for grabs (for better or worse).  The results are that you get the craziest ideas like creationism and scientology being spread around, but also the extreme critiques and dissections of those ideas without any interference from the government, something that wasn't possibe in ye olde Europe.

My problem with the "free market" hypothesis is that non-state funded churches have no more obstacles to overcome in springing up or growing than any church does in the US, (apart from the disinterest of the population, of course)

That's just the definition of the marketplace of ideas. Nothing's stopping you from starting a church, but you won't get any government help, and if people aren't interested, tough shit.

In fact unlike in the USA , they can even open state schools with a "religious ethos" of any recognised religion they choose, accepting only children from that religion, etc. A very significant minority of state schools are Catholic, and there are a few Hindu, Muslim and Sikh state schools. It also doesn't explain why the Church of England, the state-funded and official religion, is among the denominations that has long been suffering the worst decline here. Catholic and evangelical church attendance rates have seen increases in recent years (a weaker trend than the decline of overall church attendance), in part because of immigration. 

Are you saying this is how it is in Europe, unlike the USA? Then that kind of just further goes along with my point..top-down government sponsored religion is something that grinds people the wrong way, thanks to European history.

[abaris]

"place greater emphasis on structural causes, interpreting the war as the culmination of a ‘General Crisis of the seventeenth century’ attributed to social, economic or environmental factors. "

Yeah, and what caused these tensions? It was the struggle between protestanism and catholicism, namely Ferdinand II trying to roll back the advancement of protestanism in Bohemia as well as Germany. The defenestration of two imperial officials in 1618 was the spark lighting the already smoldering fire.

Long story short: One of the key points of the treaty of Westphalia in 1648/49 was "cuius regio, eius religio", which speaks volumes about the reasons for the war, since it was a struggle between protestanism and catholicism which neither could decide for itself.

[vorlon13]

Suicide ?

[Minimalist]

http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/content/CX...4.abstract

"place greater emphasis on structural causes, interpreting the war as the culmination of a ‘General Crisis of the seventeenth century’ attributed to social, economic or environmental factors. "

I am getting tired of your simpleton websites.

Hey, polecat, you dumb fuck...do you even read the stuff you post?

I quote from it:

While related to other European conflicts, the Thirty Years War was primarily a struggle over the political and religious order within the Empire.

Look, I already know you are an asshole.  You don't have to prove it every fucking day.

[Ben Davis]

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By which I mean, Northern Europe and most of Western Europe. But that wouldn't make a catchy title.

I just don't get it. I thought when I started looking into it, I'd find fairly straightforward historical explanations. But every theory I hear or come up with myself seems to have holes in.

The UK, for example:

Up to at least the first half of the 1600s, the British Isles were just as batshit crazy with religion as the average Puritan settlers to North America a century later. We were putting animals on trial and executing them for crimes including theft and bestiality, suicide was both a serious crime and a sign of possession by the devil, after which the body would have a stake driven through it like a fricking vampire, and Catholics and Protestants were taking turns to kill and persecute each other as the state religion ricocheted wildly between the two. 

Fast-forward to 1928, and the following exchange happened in parliament:

One member:
"It is perfectly ridiculous that an assemblage that contains a number of atheists should vote on the inner politics of the Church of England."
Another's response:
"I don't think there are any atheists here, not really. We all believe in some sort of a something somewhere."

Fast-forward further to the present day, and over half of us don't believe in any gods at all, and most of those who do are either first or second generation immigrants or are so vague about it that they can't accurately be labelled as Christians even if they use that word for themselves for various reasons.

Meanwhile, 40% of Americans are Creationists. The US has "In God We Trust" on its money, and we have Charles Darwin on ours. 

What the hell happened?  

If I could figure out the secret, I'd bottle it and export it all around the world!

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In the UK: Secularism, education and the combination thereof.

[Nope]

I don't know if this is a reason or not but doesn't the US have more social inequality than Europe? Perhaps more insecurity breeds more dependence on religion?

[Polaris]

http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/content/CX...4.abstract

"place greater emphasis on structural causes, interpreting the war as the culmination of a ‘General Crisis of the seventeenth century’ attributed to social, economic or environmental factors. "

I am getting tired of your simpleton websites.

Hey, polecat, you dumb fuck...do you even read the stuff you post?

I quote from it:

While related to other European conflicts, the Thirty Years War was primarily a struggle over the political and religious order within the Empire.

Look, I already know you are an asshole.  You don't have to prove it every fucking day.

Oh good. It appears you can read after all. I can't be a bigger asshole than you. You give douchebags in New Jersey a run for their money.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Leaders using religion as an excuse to cover their own political ambitions.

One more reason to shitcan blind faith -- you remove a central tool politicians use to move the unwashed masses.

Stripped of emotional appeals to faith, many political initiatives would die a deserved death.  They are kept on life-support by pleadings directed at uneducated believers susceptible to religious arguments.

Religion poisons everything.  Repent of your blind faith already, and enter the thinking world.

[Polaris]

Leaders using religion as an excuse to cover their own political ambitions.

One more reason to shitcan blind faith -- you remove a central tool politicians use to move the unwashed masses.

Stripped of emotional appeals to faith, many political initiatives would die a deserved death.  They are kept on life-support by pleadings directed at uneducated believers susceptible to religious arguments.

Religion poisons everything.  Repent of your blind faith already, and enter the thinking world.

It's not any different without religion with politicians in mind. They always find something to use to advance their own ambitions.

[Mudhammam]

One more reason to shitcan blind faith -- you remove a central tool politicians use to move the unwashed masses.

Stripped of emotional appeals to faith, many political initiatives would die a deserved death.  They are kept on life-support by pleadings directed at uneducated believers susceptible to religious arguments.

Religion poisons everything.  Repent of your blind faith already, and enter the thinking world.

It's not any different without religion with politicians in mind. They always find something to use to advance their own ambitions.

And some of us would prefer they advance their ambitions by a genuine appeal to facts. You know, that might make a little difference in the real world, which I know is of secondary concern to you Jesus enthusiasts.