Opinions on my drive to be an atheist

[Won2blv]

You're a moron, I offered that explicitly as a response to your continued insistence that his abandonment of jw principles had consequences.  You know...that thing you're harping on about now....the fallacy you seemed to have googled -after- having made up this idiotic little story -around it-.  Please, though, continue with your explanation of dissonance, and what people do when they get "called out on their shit".........

I don't think they would have helped "him", because they -didn't- help "him".  They don't seem to be helping you either, in this instance, huh?  

You continue to show your ignorance in the fact that when it comes down to it you don't have an intelligent response, just name calling and insistence that what you keep implying must be true because you keep implying it. If you re read your post, you said that his upbringing came first so it must have caused it. That is the post hoc fallacy. Yes I did google it. And it was easy to find because its apparently a common fallacy used. You keep seeming to think that I am saying that the principles were like a magic song that you sing and then you get a protective orb. The point that I keep making is that some of the principles would have helped his situation. If you got counseling on buying a new home and then your home got foreclosed because you didn't listen to or follow your counsel given, it would be your fault. You couldn't go back and blame the counselors if you didn't listen to them. Its beyond me that you can't comprehend such a simple point

[Mudhammam]

You're wrong in my situation because if god exists then I believe that he knows whats right and wrong. I want to do the right things. If god doesn't exist, then I'll can just chalk this one up as one of life's hard lessons and learn what I can from it and try to move on

In any case, what you believe to be right and wrong---regardless if you believe you have the support of Poseidon's or Jesus' moral expertise---will determine the course of your actions.

[Won2blv]

In any case, what you believe to be right and wrong---regardless if you believe you have the support of Poseidon's or Jesus' moral expertise---will determine the course of your actions.

I totally agree. Thats why I never have stated that if my brother would have stayed a JW then he would have been fine. The point I have been making is that the individual "rules" or principles that he would have practiced if he were a strict JW would have prevented some of those consequences. Not saying that there is any magic or woo involved, just that for example, if my brother didn't fornicate he wouldn't have had an unwanted pregnancy. I am sure that there could be a separate discussion on if there was better sex education and how its against our nature to not have sex but that is not what I am getting into to. Simply, the best way to avoid having kids is to not have sex. I am sure anyone would agree with that

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You're wrong in my situation because if god exists then I believe that he knows whats right and wrong. I want to do the right things. If god doesn't exist, then I'll can just chalk this one up as one of life's hard lessons and learn what I can from it and try to move on

In any case, what you believe to be right and wrong---regardless if you believe you have the support of Poseidon's or Jesus' moral expertise---will determine the course of your actions.

Also as a response to my previous remark. If god does exist then I know that he has a reason for everyone of his principles. Even the ones that I don't understand. So I would trust him that getting divorced is a bad idea. But that is my dilemma, god or not, could I ever be happily married? So when I start thinking about there being no god, well it just makes that whole decision less murky

[The Grand Nudger]

You're a moron, I offered that explicitly as a response to your continued insistence that his abandonment of jw principles had consequences.  You know...that thing you're harping on about now....the fallacy you seemed to have googled -after- having made up this idiotic little story -around it-.  Please, though, continue with your explanation of dissonance, and what people do when they get "called out on their shit".........

I don't think they would have helped "him", because they -didn't- help "him".  They don't seem to be helping you either, in this instance, huh?  

You continue to show your ignorance in the fact that when it comes down to it you don't have an intelligent response, just name calling and insistence that what you keep implying must be true because you keep implying it. If you re read your post, you said that his upbringing came first so it must have caused it. That is the post hoc fallacy. Yes I did google it. And it was easy to find because its apparently a common fallacy used. You keep seeming to think that I am saying that the principles were like a magic song that you sing and then you get a protective orb. The point that I keep making is that some of the principles would have helped his situation. If you got counseling on buying a new home and then your home got foreclosed because you didn't listen to or follow your counsel given, it would be your fault. You couldn't go back and blame the counselors if you didn't listen to them. Its beyond me that you can't comprehend such a simple point

-and again, those principles didn't seem to help him, and they are not, currently, helping you.  I understand the point you're trying to make, I just think it's ignorant. There's no way for you to know that they would help, you're being as vague as possible ("some of the principles"....lol...which ones, specifically...I wasn't aware that religion was a treatment for addiction, enlighten us all?), and now endlessly parroting some bullshit about logical fallacies that you only half understand...and only when you think it applies to the other guy. Have we've reached the terminus of how much thought you put into this story, Nica?

Are you prepared, as per your last post, to "trust god" even if it meant shittifying your wife's life? Is the existence of some god actually a reason, in your estimation, to hold her hostage to your guilt, shame, and doubt? You would trust god, you would make it work, he has his reasons......the only party missing in this little circlejerk seems to be your wife.

-Good luck with that.

[Mudhammam]

Also as a response to my previous remark. If god does exist then I know that he has a reason for everyone of his principles. Even the ones that I don't understand. So I would trust him that getting divorced is a bad idea. But that is my dilemma, god or not, could I ever be happily married? So when I start thinking about there being no god, well it just makes that whole decision less murky

Here's my point, as simple as I can make it:
1) Does God exist?
2) Does God determine human morality i.e. the best possible life humans can live with one another?
3) If God does in fact determine such, how can you know that your conceptions of either 1 or 2 coincide with the right God or the right ethical approach?

These are all separate questions, and hypothetical knowledge of 1 or 2 doesn't strengthen a person's certainty regarding the others. You can say, I just believe such and such theology, which encompasses such and such ethics, or you can just say I believe in such and such ethics.

[Whateverist]

Simply, the best way to avoid having kids is to not have sex. I am sure anyone would agree with that

You'll have to break that down for me. I get that the chance of pregnancy is extremely low without sex .. but the "best way"? I can't sign off on that. First and foremost on the negative side of the ledger, you wouldn't be getting sex. Of course if she was good with her hands and mouth, you could have a point. But any method which takes all sex off the table would be a nonstarter as well as fool proof.

[Tonus]

It brings up the odd situation where god creates humans with a powerful sexual drive which can be satisfied in a number of ways, then restricts nearly all of them on pain of death. And the one method he does allow is equally restricted. We are to believe that he designed a system that can make us feel incredibly good, then turns it into a trapdoor leading to a pit of spikes in a room full of gasoline into which he is ready to toss a lit match. It's utterly backwards and the sort of thing that would occur only to a truly sadistic person.

[Won2blv]

Simply, the best way to avoid having kids is to not have sex. I am sure anyone would agree with that

You'll have to break that down for me.  I get that the chance of pregnancy is extremely low without sex .. but the "best way"?  I can't sign off on that.  First and foremost on the negative side of the ledger, you wouldn't be getting sex.  Of course if she was good with her hands and mouth, you could have a point.  But any method which takes all sex off the table would be a nonstarter as well as fool proof.

Only as a simple truth, not having sex is the only surefire way to avoid pregnancy. I agree with tonus that it seems like a sadistic thing to give us a high sex drive and to be celibate though

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1) Does God exist?
2) Does God determine human morality i.e. the best possible life humans can live with one another?
3) If God does in fact determine such, how can you know that your conceptions of either 1 or 2 coincide with the right God or the right ethical approach?

These are all separate questions, and hypothetical knowledge of 1 or 2 doesn't strengthen a person's certainty regarding the others. You can say, I just believe such and such theology, which encompasses such and such ethics, or you can just say I believe in such and such ethics.

1. I don't know, that is why I am trying to come to a better understanding of that myself. Its simply hypothetical when I say, If god exists...
2. If the god of the bible does exist then yes I do believe he sets the standard on morality
3. If that god does exist and does love humans, then he has given them a moral code to live in which it is best for you personally and your neighbors. In the OT that would have been the nation of Israel, today it would be the whole world. 

If I do conclude that god doesn't exist or certainly that the god of the bible doesn't exist, then I can see that I can set my own moral boundaries. I would be understanding that the bible is not the gold standard for human behavior. So if I conclude that the bible is the gold standard, to me that would suggest some sort of divine backing. 

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-and again, those principles didn't seem to help him, and they are not, currently, helping you.  I understand the point you're trying to make, I just think it's ignorant.  There's no way for you to know that they would help, you're being as vague as possible ("some of the principles"....lol...which ones, specifically...I wasn't aware that religion was a treatment for addiction, enlighten us all?), and now endlessly parroting some bullshit about logical fallacies that you only half understand...and only when you think it applies to the other guy.  Have we've reached the terminus of how much thought you put into this story, Nica?

Are you prepared, as per your last post, to "trust god" even if it meant shittifying your wife's life?  Is the existence of some god actually a reason, in your estimation, to hold her hostage to your guilt, shame, and doubt?  You would trust god, you would make it work, he has his reasons......the only party missing in this little circlejerk seems to be your wife.

-Good luck with that.

So just answer this simple question, if he followed the bibles guideline to not be a fornicator would he have had an unwanted pregnancy? Thats a simple enough question I hope, even for you? What about me, if I followed Jesus principle when he said that if you even look at a woman with passion you would have committed fornication in your heart? Would I be so pressed to want to fuck other girls if I hadn't been dwelling on it? If my brother followed the principle at 2 Corinthians 7:1 to not defile the flesh, would he have done drugs that led to him losing his business, home, and child? Principles don't help anyone if they don't practice them. You are guilty of logical fallacies and you haven't proven otherwise. 

God or no god, what do you think my wife would want me to do? Work on our marriage or leave her? I haven't stated that god exists or not. I have said that if he does then he must have a ultimately good reason why he bans divorce except under adultery. 

[Mudhammam]

If I do conclude that god doesn't exist or certainly that the god of the bible doesn't exist, then I can see that I can set my own moral boundaries. I would be understanding that the bible is not the gold standard for human behavior. So if I conclude that the bible is the gold standard, to me that would suggest some sort of divine backing. 

But you do realize that on the one hand, you're just choosing a god and a holy text that makes you feel good but restricts your freedom to reason independently of the dogmas one or a few individuals decided upon, and in any given situation where you might have to make a decision you're bound from being able to fully consider what you, per your prior experiences, actually believe to be the most ethical action or outcome; whereas on the other hand, you're choosing an ethical stance in which you are free to modify your position based on the ever-changing circumstances of the real world and on your ability to reason and put your knowledge of all human experiences into context. I guess the one that seems the most capable of achieving a better outcome in terms of true morality seems obvious to me.

[Won2blv]

But you do realize that on the one hand, you're just choosing a god and a holy text that makes you feel good but restricts your freedom to reason independently of the dogmas one or a few individuals decided upon, and in any given situation where you might have to make a decision you're bound from being able to fully consider what you, per your prior experiences, actually believe to be the most ethical action or outcome; whereas on the other hand, you're choosing an ethical stance in which you are free to modify your position based on the ever-changing circumstances of the real world and on your ability to reason and put your knowledge of all human experiences into context. I guess the one that seems the most capable of achieving a better outcome in terms of true morality seems obvious to me.

I think those are all really good points. I guess that if I were to believe that god was the ultimate morally good figure in the universe then going with his desired actions would be a shortcut to doing the morally correct actions. But does a god exist in the first place? And if one does, then is he even a morally perfect being? Because I do think that allowing evil could be morally justified. That is a whole other can of worms, so just sticking to the point... if god exists and is a moral compass, then it would be worth it to follow his ways.