The right to mis-define oneself

[Longhorn]

Accepting her as a woman and her actually being a woman are not equivalent.

No, they're not. She is not a woman in the most strictly biological traditional meaning of the word that Pyr brought up, we know that. But she is female and if you're not an asshole seeking to deliberately cause her pain, you won't be pointing that out to her all the goddamned time.

Why are you so bothered by this?

IF a transgender woman is fully and completely to be considered a woman, then why would there need to be any disclosure? The reality is that this is a man who is taking steps to be more womanly, but will never be one in the way that other women are, because of the physical reality of her situation.

Help me out here man, what is your point? That she is not the same as cisgender women? I already said she isn't and nobody is pretending she can give birth or something.

[Longhorn]

I'm not comparing rape and undisclosed boy parts on a scale of 1 to 10. I'm saying that there is likely to be trauma, and that the victim of the trauma is likely to feel demeaned and violated by a non-disclosure which is essentially an aggressive sexual act.

Didn't you say it's the same thing?

Just to show up in the bedroom without first addressing the issue would constitute, in my opinion, a category of rape or sexual abuse, because the psychological effects it could have are so predictable and powerful that a responsible person would take steps to avoid them. Saying the man involved shouldn't have that emotional reaction is like saying a raped girl shouldn't have that emotional reaction-- neither can help it, and both should be protected by law from being subjected to it.

[Regina]

What does that mean? They can accept her as a woman with her still having the penis. You make it sound like she would be walking around sticking it in their faces or something

Accepting her as a woman and her actually being a woman are not equivalent.

Dude, she is fully aware of the penis. Believe me,  she knows it's there and she knows what the reaction would be. I think she wouldn't go into sex with someone without filling them in first. There might be transgendered people out there who wouldn't, but it's not because they're transgendered, but that they're dishonest.

IF a transgender woman is fully and completely to be considered a woman, then why would there need to be any disclosure?  The reality is that this is a man who is taking steps to be more womanly, but will never be one in the way that other women are, because of the physical reality of her situation.

I don't understand why its such an issue to you. Like I said before, its not going to kill you to call these transwomen "she" and respect their own decision to reassign their sex. It's really not that serious.

Hardly any transwomen are going to be throwing themselves onto you. Your fears are completely irrational. Youre talking about probably 1-2% of the worlds population who are trans, and within that minority its a minority again who would do this shit.

And you're saying all this under some narcissistic assumption these women are interested in you. I'm sure you're not Chris Hemsworth. It's the same as these straight guys who think all gays are interested in them. It's narcissistic.

[rexbeccarox]

Seriously. Jesus H, Benny... are you that insecure that you need to define every person you come into contact with? And is it really so hard to just address people the way they ask to be addressed? I don't really understand what the issue is here. If someone says "please call me Meredith" but you know she was born "Steve", why does it hurt you in any way to call her "Meredith"?

[Longhorn]

I really don't know what the point is anymore, if there was one to begin with

[bennyboy]

Seriously.  Jesus H, Benny... are you that insecure that you need to define every person you come into contact with?  And is it really so hard to just address people the way they ask to be addressed?  I don't really understand what the issue is here. If someone says "please call me Meredith" but you know she was born "Steve", why does it hurt you in any way to call her "Meredith"?

You are arguing against a position I never took.  In fact, you are arguing for a position that I've already expressed on my own.

[bennyboy]

I don't understand why its such an issue to you. Like I said before, its not going to kill you to call these transwomen "she" and respect their own decision to reassign their sex. It's really not that serious.

You too? I never said a transwoman shouldn't be called "she," or that their decision to reassign their sex shouldn't be respected. Why do you guys keep projecting this opinion on me?

Hardly any transwomen are going to be throwing themselves onto you. Your fears are completely irrational. Youre talking about probably 1-2% of the worlds population who are trans, and within that minority its a minority again who would do this shit.

You're missing the point, which goes to the OP. It has nothing to do with sex, or with who I think might be attracted to me. It has everything to do with how people define themselves, and the degree to which other people should be expected to accept those definitions at face value and without caveat. The sexual examples go to show that simply identifying as a woman doesn 't mean others have to turn a blind eye to reality.

Should the OP woman be accepted in a community of black people because she started tanning, crimping her hair, and pretending to have a black father? No. Because she's not. . . fucking. . . black. If she told me "Hey, I like to be thought of as black, so call me Latisha" I'd be fine with that. I'd play along. But if she wanted to apply for an affirmative action program (it looks like she did, actually), then she needs to be rejected.

[Longhorn]

Should the OP woman be accepted in a community of black people because she started tanning, crimping her hair, and pretending to have a black father? No. Because she's not. . . fucking. . . black. If she told me "Hey, I like to be thought of as black," I'd be fine with that. If anyone argues that black is as black thinks-- no. Because that flies in the face of reality.

Which I agree with, but, for the fourth time, it has nothing to do with transgendered people

[Cato]

If you don't think a man should should be traumatized by that situation, then fuck you too.  I'm a man, and if that happened to me, I would be traumatized.  And I can speak on behalf of many of my male friends, and say that they would be, too.

That's the thing-- you don't get to say who is/isn't or should be/shouldn't be traumatized.  If you don't think the majority of men would be traumatized if their hot date turned out to have a penis, then you are either living under a rock, or a liar.

I need help. Where's the part in your horror story where the dude has something shoved up his ass against his will? Unless you insert this into your little scenario you don't have anything close to rape. Your imagined trauma is like saying you know what slavery was like because you were asked to work some overtime; there is simply no equivalence.

[henryp]

Accepting her as a woman and her actually being a woman are not equivalent.

No, they're not. She is not a woman in the most strictly biological traditional meaning of the word that Pyr brought up, we know that. But she is female and if you're not an asshole seeking to deliberately cause her pain, you won't be pointing that out to her all the goddamned time.

Why are you so bothered by this?

So, I think where some of us are getting tripped up, is that as "atheists" many of us are all about the whole measurable fact department. So when you say "She's not in the most strictly biological...", that's how many of us define male/female.  Strictly biological.  
And the rest, to some of us, is immaterial.  I think it's, interestingly, associated with the movement to remove gender stereotypes.  If this were 1950, when women were still in the little box of how they were supposed to behave, then it'd probably be a lot easier to accept.

Instead, we have a culture that rightly (i think) believes a man or woman can do whatever they want regardless of if they are a man or woman.  Femininity and masculinity are no longer factors.  Sex with the opposite sex isn't a factor.  Liking musicals, being in touch with your feelings, punching people for a living.  It's all wide open.  A woman can be anything.  A man can be anything.  

So now we have a man who says "I identify as a woman."  But there is no longer a "woman" identity in some of our minds.  So it's like the Transgender stuff is lagging 20 years behind our current views.  For some of us, the labels of "Man" and "Woman" only exist as strictly biological identifiers, so we're having a bit of difficulty figuring out what exactly is being talked about.