The right to mis-define oneself

[Longhorn]

So, I think where some of us are getting tripped up, is that as "atheists" many of us are all about the whole measurable fact department. So when you say "She's not in the most strictly biological...", that's how many of us define male/female.  Strictly biological.  
And the rest, to some of us, is immaterial.  I think it's, interestingly, associated with the movement to remove gender stereotypes.  If this were 1950, when women were still in the little box of how they were supposed to behave, then it'd probably be a lot easier to accept.

Instead, we have a culture that rightly believes a man or woman can do whatever they want, and it doesn't make them less of a man or woman.  Femininity and masculinity are no longer factors.  Sex with the opposite sex isn't a factor.  Liking musicals, being in touch with your feelings, punching people for a living.  It's all wide open.  A woman can be anything.  A man can be anything.  

So now we have a man who says "I identify as a woman."  But there is no longer a "woman" identity in some of our minds.  So it's like the Transgender stuff is lagging 20 years behind our current views.  For some of us, the labels of "Man" and "Woman" only exist as strictly biological identifiers.

We've addressed this already. It has nothing to do with interests, stereotypes, sexism or what society perceives to be male or female. This is rooted in brain structure and chemistry.

Sex is strictly biological. But we are talking about gender identity, a much more complex issue. A transgendered person's brain is bombarding them with the information that they are of the opposite sex than that assigned to them at birth. It isn't about whims. Gender dysphoria is a factual mental condition.

[Regina]

I also disagree with the idea that society doesn't still have gender roles in the 21st century

Women are still slut-shamed for taking ownership of their sexuality, while men are "top lads" if they sleep around. Men who don't take an interest in football (talking British football here, not American) are still looked at like "WTF happened to you?". We still have men competing with eachother in petty displays of hypermasculinity and women are still constantly judged on their physical appearance.

But yes, delude yourself we're in a post-gender society

[henryp]

I also disagree with the idea that society doesn't still have gender roles in the 21st century

Women are still slut-shamed for taking ownership of their sexuality, while men are "top lads" if they sleep around. Men who don't take an interest in football (talking British football here, not American) are still looked at like "WTF happened to you?". We still have men competing with eachother in petty displays of hypermasculinity and women are still constantly judged on their physical appearance.

But yes, delude yourself we're in a post-gender society

And people still kill in the name of Allah.  Doesn't mean that we all need to stick with old stupid ideas.

[SteelCurtain]

We have to come to the realization that gender=/=sex. This is a relatively new development in psychology.

That is what seems to be tripping up people. It is not what's between your legs that defines your gender. That defines your sex. Caitlyn Jenner is female gender, male sex.

And again, this isn't something she just decided to be recently. She just decided to act on it recently. You have to understand that these people struggle with this most of their lives before they come to grips with it. Their brain is hammering them with the fact that they are not what their body expresses. So when a MtF trans woman asks you to refer to her as a female, she is not asking you to accept her sex as female, as she still has a penis, and is male sexed. She's just asking you to recognize that she is female gendered.

Again, no one is saying that everyone should pretend that these women don't have a penis. The suggestion that if we accept their gender as female, now there is going to be rampant dishonesty because they suddenly think everyone thinks they have a vagina is childish.

[henryp]

So, I think where some of us are getting tripped up, is that as "atheists" many of us are all about the whole measurable fact department. So when you say "She's not in the most strictly biological...", that's how many of us define male/female.  Strictly biological.  
And the rest, to some of us, is immaterial.  I think it's, interestingly, associated with the movement to remove gender stereotypes.  If this were 1950, when women were still in the little box of how they were supposed to behave, then it'd probably be a lot easier to accept.

Instead, we have a culture that rightly believes a man or woman can do whatever they want, and it doesn't make them less of a man or woman.  Femininity and masculinity are no longer factors.  Sex with the opposite sex isn't a factor.  Liking musicals, being in touch with your feelings, punching people for a living.  It's all wide open.  A woman can be anything.  A man can be anything.  

So now we have a man who says "I identify as a woman."  But there is no longer a "woman" identity in some of our minds.  So it's like the Transgender stuff is lagging 20 years behind our current views.  For some of us, the labels of "Man" and "Woman" only exist as strictly biological identifiers.

We've addressed this already. It has nothing to do with interests, stereotypes, sexism or what society perceives to be male or female. This is rooted in brain structure and chemistry.

Sex is strictly biological. But we are talking about gender identity, a much more complex issue. A transgendered person's brain is bombarding them with the information that they are of the opposite sex than that assigned to them at birth. It isn't about whims. Gender dysphoria is a factual mental condition.

What you are vs. what you think you are.  But you think that what you think you are is what you are.  I'll certainly read more about it going forward.  Just intuitively, I don't get it yet.

[Pyrrho]

So, I'm guessing that Australian aboriginals would not classify as "black" for you but some white skinned, fair haired South Africans, who's family can trace their roots back hundreds of years would?!? You've got a weird definition of "black."

No, I don't think I do.  I think in America, when people say "black" or "colored," they are referring specifically to African origin.

I disagree.  I am an American and I think anyone with sufficiently dark skin would be considered "black," no matter whether they were from Africa or Australia or anywhere else.  I think the word "black" in this context is basically about skin color.  Every dictionary that I have just consulted agrees with me on this.  I recommend that you look this up in a couple of your favorite dictionaries.

Indeed, it would be odd if color words like "black" and "white" were primarily used for something like continent of origin instead of for being used to say something about color.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm not comparing rape and undisclosed boy parts on a scale of 1 to 10.  I'm saying that there is likely to be trauma, and that the victim of the trauma is likely to feel demeaned and violated by a non-disclosure which is essentially an aggressive sexual act.

"Aggressive"? Now who is redefining words?

Seriously, when you have the option to say "no thanks", comparing that situation to rape is inapt, and strikes me as an appeal to emotion.

[Thumpalumpacus]

You too?  I never said a transwoman shouldn't be called "she," or that their decision to reassign their sex shouldn't be respected.  Why do you guys keep projecting this opinion on me?

Are you respecting their decision if you call it "misdefining"? Because that's what you call it in your thread title.

[Longhorn]

What you are vs. what you think you are.  But you think that what you think you are is what you are.  I'll certainly read more about it going forward.  Just intuitively, I don't get it yet.

-_-

It's not what you are vs what you think you are, it's what you are, period. Caitlyn Jenner is not a man who thinks he's a woman, she is a transwoman.

[Bad Wolf]

I agree that gender dysphoria is a real thing and it's unfortunate, but it isn't what you are. I'm very happy to call you whatever you want and all the stuff that goes with it when it comes to that, but that's where I draw the line. I mean some people think they are animals trapped in human bodies, some people even think that they are mythical creatures like dragons or unicorns. And some people make up their own gender identity, just browse tumblr long enough and you'll see it: i'm a pansexual, asexual, non-binary demi-girl etc. I'm not going to humour someone when they tell me they are a wolf in a human body. Where do we draw the line when it comes to these things?