Atheism, Evidence and the God-of-the-Gaps

[Randy Carson]

Hitler was a big fan of Nietzsche. That was the influence that led to the Holocaust.

He was also a big fan of that Catholic priest turned anti-Semite Martin Luther whose influence on Germany fueled the racist and gruesome treatment of Jews. And unlike with Nietzsche, nobody had to grossly misunderstand Luther's writings to use them in support of Nazi fascism.

FORMER Catholic priest, Nestor. Former Catholic priest.

[Jenny A]

Adults don't have blind faith. They have an informed faith.

You should, too.

Okay, when I read this I hear, adults don't just believe in Jesus, they study exactly the Jesus story is first.  That's information regarding the claim, not proof of the claim.  Without proof of the claim it's still blind faith.

Or is there real evidence?

[Esquilax]

Hitler visited the Weimar Nietzsche because he had read Nietzsche and admired him. The Aryan race was a twisted version of Nietzsche's "superman".

Are you, perhaps, aware of the guilt by association fallacy?

Hitler understood with chilling clarity the moral implications of a Nietzschean world without God. Once he had attained power, he created the concentration camps to implement the Darwinian law of nature that would bring about the elimination of the unfit and the creation of a civilization that was fit for the master race.

Okay, so, you've had it explained to you what "Darwinian" laws of nature actually mean and imply for human beings, what "fittest" means for our particular niche, so continuing with this blatant strawman now is completely dishonest, and since you reference the "why be good?" thread here you can't just pin it on a slip of memory either.

As for Nietzche, I don't particularly find the implication that a world without god abandons moral precepts; merely the ones associated with god, for their own sake. Aside from your fiat assertion and utterly baseless dismissals of any attempt to explain to you how one could construct an objective standard of morality sans god, you have produced no argument at all that this godless world is in any way "chilling." Simply going "nuh uh!" as you have all throughout the "why be good?" thread is a debate tactic worthy of a five year old, and it's absolutely stunning that you came away from that thinking that you'd made some form of valid point.

So, yeah, Hitler's "final solution" was all about doing "what was best for his people without regard to other populations." and the connection is obvious.

Second strawman: the people in your group can be every person in the world. In fact, as our globalized world testifies, that may be the best outcome.

But noooo...according to the stuff I'm told in the "Why Be Good?" thread, atheism (and the death of God) has nothing to do with this whatsoever.

And baseless sarcasm backed by strawmen isn't an answer to that.

I guess Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot (to name a few) just weren't as evolved as the rest of you.

They were wrong. Catastrophically so, but there's nothing in evolutionary theory, even in the bastardized, misrepresented strawman of it that you dishonestly cling to, that precludes being wrong on issues.

But hey, why not keep crowing about dictators rather than addressing the positions of the people actually in front of you, right? After all, all atheists are one monolithic bloc with a hive mind, we can't possibly have different views, yeah?

[Cyberman]

Too bad your god didn't save Fr. Thomas Byles or Fr. Joseph Peruschitz.  Guess they weren't holy enough.

Alternatively, maybe they were holy enough to send on the voyage. Weren't they the priests who were hearing confessions as the ship went down? Probably saved a lot of souls that.

There were three priests aboard, btw.

Here's a good article: http://the-american-catholic.com/2012/04...e-titanic/

They still drowned with all the others who weren't priests.

[rexbeccarox]

What is a definition of God that you would accept?

What is your definition of "God", Randy? You're the one who believes in it, so you're the one who needs to define it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Parkers, I have no idea what your personal issues are but what you believe to be hammering is simply iron strengthening iron. So, hammer away at me all you like.

I disavow nothing (beyond Genesis 3 anyway, and even then I'd want to discuss each point specifically).

Then you'll have to admit that I do understand your conception of your god; I have read the same book, recording the same alleged deeds. That you imagine that to be a strengthening exercise says more about your mindset than it does about the god in question. Blind faith may feed on a persecution complex, but the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.

God has committed no crimes.

So you approve of genocide, then.

Man, you must spend a lot of time reading crappy books, Parkers. Why not take a look at the one I recommended? At least you will be able to argue against what Christians REALLY believe about God and not the strawmen you set up, okay?

I've read the one book that you assert to be the ultimate truth. Why should such a book need further support from yet more fallible human authors?

You saw the photo.

Hitler visited the Weimar Nietzsche because he had read Nietzsche and admired him. The Aryan race was a twisted version of Nietzsche's "superman". Hitler understood with chilling clarity the moral implications of a Nietzschean world without God. Once he had attained power, he created the concentration camps to implement the Darwinian law of nature that would bring about the elimination of the unfit and the creation of a civilization that was fit for the master race.

Hitler also visited the Eiffel tower in 1940. Does that mean he drew inspiration from French architecture?

So, yeah, Hitler's "final solution" was all about doing "what was best for his people without regard to other populations." and the connection is obvious.

Only to those who haven't examined the history of the man or the movement he led. He was much more influenced by the wellsprings I mentioned, and the Nietzschean influence was not towards extermination of untermenschen, but rather, towards his self-identification. His ideas about the treatment of Jews were much more influenced by Luther's attitudes.

Nietzsche > Hitler > Auschwitz

Repetition is not citation.

But noooo...according to the stuff I'm told in the "Why Be Good?" thread, atheism (and the death of God) has nothing to do with this whatsoever.

Given that Hitler wasn't an atheist, this point of yours is vapid.

I guess Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot (to name a few) just weren't as evolved as the rest of you.

Well, it's a good thing I don't take them to be my role models. You, on the other hand, worship the original genocidal maniac. You regard his genocides as justified, while I rightly excoriate anyone, atheist or believer, who thinks that killing entire groups of people is the way to a better world. You defend the idea of your god Flooding the entire world and killing all but eight humans. You defend a god who ordered the murder of children in captured lands. You defend a god who ordered his warriors to rape and pillage ... yet with the very same breath, you castigate human tyrants who do the same.

Moral relativity, anyone?

[Longhorn]

Clearly? He clearly doesn't care and is laughably incompetent?

No...no presuppositions there.

Those are observations, not presuppositions, Randy. They are conclusions that I came to.

are the children dying every day only a lie then? Do the 21 major religious groups in the world today all worship the same thing despite contradicting each other significantly?

What place does toxocariasis (caused by eye-burrowing parasites that literally eat children's eyeballs) have in this design? Why is the world so imperfectly constructed if it had a perfect creator?

And now, instead of dodging my points with falsely identified logical fallacies I wasn't guilty of committing, would you be so kind as to put the condescension aside and actually address my post? Believe it or not, I'm here for discussion and your dismissive attitude is killing it.

Let me ask again: what are the steps in your reasoning that lead you from the conclusion of a creator to a theistic god, then your deity, then your denomination?

If you aren't taking me seriously Randy, say so. I don't want to waste my time if you're not willing to engage.

[Thumpalumpacus]

And now, instead of dodging my points with falsely identified logical fallacies I wasn't guilty of committing, would you be so kind as to put the condescension aside and actually address my post? Believe it or not, I'm here for discussion and your dismissive attitude is killing it.

Good luck with that.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

Frequently, members of this forum suggest that theists are guilty of a "god-of-the-gaps" reasoning. But is that true?

Yes. This forum is replete with GOTG arguments, many probably made by you.

Or does the God-of-the-Gaps argument actually boomerang back on its proponents?

Depends if there's a claim being made and the argument in question. If the answer to a GOTG argument is 'prove it' - then no.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Hitler was a big fan of Nietzsche. That was the influence that led to the Holocaust.

Is that like iron chariots when it comes to the protection that a personal god should give to his followers? I believe that was my earlier point. If I'm going to dedicate my life to someone, he should give me a blessed life. But apparently people who read Nietzsche can keep god from stopping them from killing his followers.

The Bible says that the Jews don't please God and are hostile to the entire human race.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...EB;KJV;NLT  So it seems strange that Christians get all weepy about Hitler's vendetta against them.  After all, they killed Jesus, the Christians' God.  

Now Hitler was many things but most of all he was stupider than a box of rocks.  The dummy started a major war without any major weapons systems and without a navy or an effective air force.  He lost the war when he fired the first shot.  But he was the best thing to have ever happened to America.  We should establish a national award for his contribution to American society.  Of all of the world's bad guys he has the worse reputation simply because he killed a lot of white people.  Other criminals have killed far more civilians than Hitler but their victims weren't white so they get a pass.  

The funny thing is that while people were whining about how awful Hitler was the American racists did everthing in their power to prevent black American soldiers from killing evil white German Nazis.   They only let a few fight them in extreme circumstances.  They were allowed to kill Japanese because they weren't white.  Heck, they wouldn't even allow black citizens to work in defense plants to build weapons to fight our national enemies.  But even so Hitler and his ill-conceived war did more to end the black concentration camps on Southern farms in America than any American ever did.  

So Hitler should get at least a "B" grade for his overall positive contribution to humanity.  He brought about the end of the European empires, helped American to become the #1 superpower, exposed American racist hyprocrisy which forced it to change (somewhat) in order to counter the communist movement, and he even helped the Jews to get their own country.  Of course they stole it from the Palestinians but they had done that several times before.  So Hitler was good for the world.  We wouldn't be where we are if it hadn't been for him.  Blame, or praise, God.