What IS good, and how do we determine it?

[Randy Carson]

You may recall that when the bishops did speak out against Nazism in the earliest days of the war, Hitler ordered massive bombing in retaliation, and many innocent civilians died. Consequently, the Church hierarchy realized that its opposition to the Germans would have to be conducted underground. Catholic monasteries and churches all over Europe were used for hiding the Jews and as part of an underground railroad that moved people out of harm's way. If the Pope and the Bishops had confronted Hitler from their pulpits, these havens would have been destroyed.

At the time prior to the war one third of the German people were Catholic and prior to its forced dissolution by the Vatican the Catholic Center Party was by far the single most powerful party in Germany (Pius XII ordered Monsignor Kass, the then leader to dissolve it). The Nazi party could never have come to power without the devolution of the Catholic Center Party. That is historical fact.

Also, whatever happened to not standing aside quietly when sin takes place? I had my boyfreinds bitch of a sister spraypainting "faggot" on the front of my car because her Catholic faith "requires" her to "oppose evil and sin wherever it takes root". That's why the Catholic Church is screaming like a hysterical tart holding exorcism masses in the US and Mexico trying to cast out "the gay demons" and the "sins of the death culture".

This is what is called hypocrisy. If morality is not relative, you must oppose evil as and when it appears as Newman so eloquently phrased in the Apologia.

None of which addresses the point I made about Hitler's retaliation against innocent people when a priest or bishop preached against Nazism, does it?

Why did you skip over that?

That's not what I asked. You have seen Catholicism from the three vantage points of atheism, Protestantism (you are not Protestant) and Orthodoxy (you are not Orthodox). Consequently, you have not studied Catholicism from the Catholic point of view...with an appreciation of Catholic sprituality, etc.

Only as an outsider in three admittedly hostile environments.

I can't help but wonder what your impression of Catholicism might be if you earned a degree from a solid Catholic university. Just sayin'.

I actually did apply to try and study for a masters at a Catholic university, but as "an agent of satan" (and I'm quoting one of their admission officers) I'm apparently not allowed as my presence in their "sacred halls" would be "grave scandal and temptation". The Orthodox thankfully were rather more accepting, they dislike my worldview but they were willing to allow me to learn more about theirs. I'm not bitter, I actually understand some of their reasons for doing so and the university I later got into was actually far better in standing. Although why they thought I would bring "temptation" I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps they were worried I might tempt one of their candidates for the priesthood? I've not the least idea

I take in all the evidence I have access to Randy, and while I have no qualifications in specifically Catholic theology I have done much research into many aspects of it, such as the activity of the SSPX, the FSPX and the sex abuse cases in Newfoundland and Ireland. I'm always open to new information, but I am not this ignoramous basing myself on half-knowings and patchy knowledge as you make out. If anything I've demonstrated my knowledge of Cathoic History and Theology exceeds your own.

I think it might and for good reason! I'm just a poor, amateur apologist...of no real account to anyone.  

But what I asked is if you might actually develop an APPRECIATION for Catholic theology if you had studied it from OUR side of the divide. Stockholm Syndrome and all that.  

Here I was thinking of Catholic theology. Perhaps as an atheist, you haven't actually paid much attention to that. You seem more focused on the history and sociological aspects of the Church...

Of course I'm going to, the actions of the church are supposedly dictated by and directed via  its devotion to it's spiritual mission. By their fruits ye shall know them.

As for Catholic theology....I will need to consider this. I mentioned on another thread I found replacing vainglory with charitas in Late Roman society was a very valuable contribution and shift in culture. I will try to reflect and consider anything else.

[Randy Carson]

Deuteronomy 22:25-27
25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.


That's the death penalty for rape, becca. Is that "any justice"?

Nope, because that only applies to a woman betrothed.

Sorry, but you asked for "any" justice and by what you just said, you admit that this is justice...just not what you were looking for.

You're desperate at this point, becca. Splitting every hair to maintain your belief that God condones rape.

He doesn't. And now you know.

[rexbeccarox]

Nope, because that only applies to a woman betrothed.

Sorry, but you asked for "any" justice and by what you just said, you admit that this is justice...just not what you were looking for.

You're desperate at this point, becca. Splitting every hair to maintain your belief that God condones rape.

He doesn't. And now you know.

It's not justice if it doesn't apply to everyone... and on top of it, how is that justice for the rape victim? Also, I don't believe in capital punishment, so I see no justice there, at all, for anyone.

... and you accusing me of splitting hairs??

[Randy Carson]

Sorry, but you asked for "any" justice and by what you just said, you admit that this is justice...just not what you were looking for.

You're desperate at this point, becca. Splitting every hair to maintain your belief that God condones rape.

He doesn't. And now you know.

It's not justice if it doesn't apply to everyone... and on top of it, how is that justice for the rape victim? Also, I don't believe in capital punishment, so I see no justice there, at all, for anyone.

... and you accusing me of splitting hairs??

You asked for a verse which showed "any" justice. Well, the verse I gave you is "some" justice which satisfies your demand for "any".

Becca, I'm sorry, but your challenge was issued and answered.

Christian 1
Atheist 0

Now, I have spent more time on this than it deserved. Sorting the rest of this out is really between you and God. Take it up with Him.

He knows you're pissed, but He can handle it.

[rexbeccarox]

It's not justice if it doesn't apply to everyone... and on top of it, how is that justice for the rape victim? Also, I don't believe in capital punishment, so I see no justice there, at all, for anyone.

... and you accusing me of splitting hairs??

You asked for a verse which showed "any" justice. Well, the verse I gave you is "some" justice which satisfies your demand for "any".

Becca, I'm sorry, but your challenge was issued and answered.

Christian 1
Atheist 0

Now, I have spent more time on this than it deserved. Sorting the rest of this out is really between you and God. Take it up with Him.

He knows you're pissed, but He can handle it.

Yeah... ok, Randy, sure. You absolutely nailed this one

[Cato]

Consequently, I continue to point out that while the treatment of women captured in war or raped seems repugnant to us today, the Law of God was nothing short of revolutionary in its day and a huge improvement over the other nations with whom God did not covenant Himself.

God does not condone rape.

Fucking liar. God commanded rape. Any idiot with a Bible knows this; it's undeniable.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I can't help but wonder what your impression of Catholicism might be if you earned a degree from a solid Catholic university. Just sayin'.

One would think that a Universal Truth wouldn't require a specifically biased education in order to garner a favorable impression.

Just sayin'.

[Catholic_Lady]

I agree. But they are dangerous because they believe horrible things (rape, murder, etc) are moral. This does not apply to Randy.

Actually the Salafists (what ISIS are) are against rape and murder, but they make a separation between "just" and "deserved" (Salafists deserve protection but everyone else is just cattle to be used as wished). It's rather akin to the Catholic doctrine of Just war; killing is bad, but some people like heretics should be killed as well.

The 10 commandments are pretty explicit about "Thou Shalt Not Kill", but the Catholic Church does not condemn Capital Punishment. Francis may personally complain about it but you may have noticed he does not forbid it.

Well, Randy has not said that any rape is just or deserved, so there is no need to worry or to associate him/compare him to the likes of isis.

And just to clarify, Catholic doctrine does not teach that killing heretics is wrong. There is a list of conditions for a war to be justified, and it basically comes down to being the last resort for preserving the most human life possible. It's a pretty high bar.

---

Then perhaps you should focus your energy on those types of people. Randy is not one of them.

I, for one, have never met a single Christian or Jew who honestly believed God wants them to rape. Not saying there aren't crazies out there, but the normal person does not come out from reading the bible believing that this is what God wants. As long as Randy believes rape is wrong, why does it matter, to you, that he reads/believes the bible? This is an honest question, btw. Not trying to be rude. I'm just a little perplexed as to why anyone would let it bother them so much.

Who said God wants anyone to rape??  I don't think anyone has.

I've said he condones rape, meaning he accepts and allows it.  Give me one good example of God bringing justice to a rapist for the crime of rape.

Hint: making him pay daddy and marry his victim doesn't count; there's absolutely no justice for the rape victim there.

Fair enough.

I've never met any Christian or Jew who honestly believe God condones rape. As I have explained in several other posts,  Randy was not saying that God condones rape.

[Ravenshire]

It's not justice if it doesn't apply to everyone... and on top of it, how is that justice for the rape victim? Also, I don't believe in capital punishment, so I see no justice there, at all, for anyone.

... and you accusing me of splitting hairs??

You asked for a verse which showed "any" justice. Well, the verse I gave you is "some" justice which satisfies your demand for "any".

Becca, I'm sorry, but your challenge was issued and answered.

Christian 1
Atheist 0

Now, I have spent more time on this than it deserved. Sorting the rest of this out is really between you and God. Take it up with Him.

He knows you're pissed, but He can handle it.

You're right. It really shouldn't take this long to prove your gawd isn't an immoral chucklefuck. The question is if that speaks poorly of you, your gawd or the both of you.

[SteelCurtain]

You asked for a verse which showed "any" justice. Well, the verse I gave you is "some" justice which satisfies your demand for "any".

Becca, I'm sorry, but your challenge was issued and answered.

Christian 1
Atheist 0

Now, I have spent more time on this than it deserved. Sorting the rest of this out is really between you and God. Take it up with Him.

He knows you're pissed, but He can handle it.

You're right. It really shouldn't take this long to prove your gawd isn't an immoral chucklefuck. The question is if that speaks poorly of you, your gawd or the both of you.

What is "the both of you", Alex?