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Need bible translation
#21
RE: Need bible translation
As literal translations have been given above, I offer here a looser translation, i.e., what I feel in my soul when I read these Holy words of the Lord:

*screaming*  DO WHAT I TELL YOU!! *stomps foot like a petulant child*  ALL OF YOU NEED TO AGREE WITH ME!!! *drools and foams a bit*  I AM NOT A CRAZY PERSON!!!

Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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#22
RE: Need bible translation
(June 27, 2015 at 9:43 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Matthew 18:18. Please put in layman"s terms. Working IQ of 100.

First, take a look at the larger context.

Matthew 18:15-18
15 “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. 18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

This authority, given by Jesus to the Apostles, is actually a derivative of the greater authority given to Peter in Mt. 16:18-19:

Matthew 16:18-19
18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Peter was given the keys to the whole kingdom - he has the keys to the gates of the city with the authority over all that comes in and goes out. In Mt 18:18, the authority of the other apostles - while absolute - is over lesser matters - analogously, the buildings and inner rooms of the city.

It is clear even from Scripture that Peter had a special commission and special powers from Christ to care for the flock of Christ, to bind and loose, and to confirm his brothers in faith -- indeed he had the very powers of the keys to the Kingdom. Obviously, these powers were essential to the Church as constituted by Christ. And Christ promised to be with the Church always to the end of time, and said that the powers of hell would not prevail against it.

Now, clearly Christ knew that Peter would not live until the end of time, so he must have intended that the power he gave to Peter would be carried on until His return. After all, Peter was to feed "my" (Christ's) sheep, and so was serving as the vicar of Christ in Christ's absence. When Peter died, a new vicar would take his place, and so on, until Christ returned to claim his own. The parable of the steward awaiting his Master's return is very much to the point.

Just as clearly, Peter's authority also enabled himself (and his successors) to set forth the manner in which their successors would be selected, either by choosing the successor personally before death, or by setting forth some other means -- eventually, election by the college of cardinals.

Moroever, if these special and essential powers were to pass out of existence, it would be proof that Christ was no longer with his Church and that the powers of Hell had indeed prevailed. Therefore, again, Christ must have intended successors to Peter.

For this reason, we are not at all surprised that subsequent popes claimed to have the Petrine power and that the early Christian community accepted it without question. This authority was exercised by the fourth Pope, Clement, while St. John the Evangelist was still alive. The earliest Christians were in a position to know Christ's will from other sources than Scripture (just as we today, under the guidance of the Church, are able to learn from Tradition).

Now we come to the specific question of infallibility, by which the successors of Peter continue to confirm the brethren. Since the successors of Peter have the same Petrine authority, which comes ultimately from Christ, to bind and loose, they have the authority to bind the faithful in matters pertaining to salvation -- that is, in faith or morals. Now, if a Pope could bind the faithful to error, it would be a clear triumph of the powers of Hell, because the entire Church would be bound to follow the error under Christ's own authority. Obviously, this cannot happen.

Therefore, the logic of the situation demands that the Petrine power of confirming the brethren must be an infallible power. When the Pope intends by virtue of his supreme authority to teach on a matter of faith and morals to the entire Church, he MUST be protected by the Holy Spirit from error -- else the powers of hell would prevail.

This is the logic behind infallibility. But, of course, it is not based solely on logic, since it is attested in Scripture and was held by the earliest Christians and the Fathers and, indeed, by the vast majority of Christians from the beginning.


Further, it is not a new thing. It was precisely defined at Vatican I in order to clarify what was at that time a confusing issue, but this was by way of stating clearly what Christ's teaching was, not by way of adding anything new. Vatican I therefore carefully enumerated the conditions under which the Pope was in fact infallible -- the same conditions which logic demands, which Scripture suggests, and which tradition shows us in action down through the centuries.

When the Pope (1) intends to teach (2) by virtue of his supreme authority (3) on a matter of faith and morals (4) to the whole Church, he is preserved by the Holy Spirit from error. His teaching act is therefore called "infallible" and the teaching which he articulates is termed "irreformable".
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#23
RE: Need bible translation
If you are truly pure in your intentions then your actions will be justified by in all existence.
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#24
RE: Need bible translation
(June 27, 2015 at 9:43 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Matthew 18:18. Please put in layman"s terms. Working IQ of 100.
Matthew 18:18 is a silly verse that has the Jesus character telling his disciples that they get to make up their own rules even if they conflict with his or God's.  It goes counter to everything else in the fairy tale about having to follow the law or Jesus' commandments.    A classic example of this is the many rules Paul introduced that conflict with the law and Jesus' commandments.
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#25
RE: Need bible translation
(June 28, 2015 at 10:00 am)IATIA Wrote:
(June 28, 2015 at 12:07 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Could one of the translations be, what the church holds true on earth I will hold true in heaven?

Been watching 'Dogma' have we?
Exactly. One of my favs poking at the myth. Thought it would be an interesting mental exercise. If the church holds true then heaven holds true is what is meant then what happens in heaven when the church changes its position? Are the changes retro active? Do the those who got in originally now get kicked out because the new view has changed and vice versa, do the ones originally excluded get in?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#26
RE: Need bible translation
(June 27, 2015 at 9:43 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Matthew 18:18. Please put in layman"s terms. Working IQ of 100.

18 “I can assure you that when you speak judgment here on earth, it will be God’s judgment. And when you promise forgiveness here on earth, it will be God’s forgiveness.[[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mat+18&version=ERV#fen-ERV-23428c][/url]

This is one of my favorites.

What Christ is saying here is if you open you mouth and cast judgement on someone, then God will inturn use that very same measure to judge you. Like wise if you forgive someone then inturn God will use your very same measure to forgive you.

This is illustrated in the parable of the wicked servant which follows in verse 21 through the end of the chapter.
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#27
RE: Need bible translation
(June 29, 2015 at 1:25 am)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:
(June 27, 2015 at 9:43 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Matthew 18:18. Please put in layman"s terms. Working IQ of 100.
Matthew 18:18 is a silly verse that has the Jesus character telling his disciples that they get to make up their own rules even if they conflict with his or God's.  It goes counter to everything else in the fairy tale about having to follow the law or Jesus' commandments.    A classic example of this is the many rules Paul introduced that conflict with the law and Jesus' commandments.

I'm curious what Paul said that contradicts Jesus? Perhaps 5 of the "many"?
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#28
RE: Need bible translation
(June 27, 2015 at 9:43 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Matthew 18:18. Please put in layman"s terms. Working IQ of 100.

"stick it in your mouth and swallow"

I believe that's the literal translation.
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#29
RE: Need bible translation
The 18th verse is applied to the church and no individual. To bind in this particular case is the judgement of the church guided by God's wisdom. To loose means to, as Drich said, is to forgive through God's wisdom. God would trust no one to decide what will happen to people or forgiveness of people without it being taught by Him, this is why we have the Bible and prayer, to know what God desires us to do in judgement. God would never allow bad decisions made on earth to be a part of His perfect eternal kingdom. Being able to have the personal relationship with God means God can work through many individuals (the Church) to teach us to honestly judge other Christians through His taught wisdom. God's teachings are so to speak black and white, so anyone delving into the gray may be wrong, that's why God uses the majority in the church to decide, it will eliminate those delving into the gray areas and hopefully they will learn from the experience.

I guess this is more than you wanted, but you asked a question that actually takes more than one verse to explain. There's much more to it than anyone has explained, we were trying to give you something less complicated. 

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#30
RE: Need bible translation
(June 29, 2015 at 8:18 am)mh.brewer Wrote:
(June 28, 2015 at 10:00 am)IATIA Wrote: Been watching 'Dogma' have we?
Exactly. One of my favs poking at the myth. Thought it would be an interesting mental exercise. If the church holds true then heaven holds true is what is meant then what happens in heaven when the church changes its position? Are the changes retro active? Do the those who got in originally now get kicked out because the new view has changed and vice versa, do the ones originally excluded get in?

The Church may change its position on disciplines and devotions but not on dogmas and doctrines.

As for your follow up questions, we are responsible for what we know. Consequently, if a doctrine or dogma is more thoroughly developed or declared later, the person would only be accountable for what they could have known...not what they could not have known during their lifetime.

The context of Matthew 18 is a private teaching session between Jesus and his intimate disciples. He was not out on a hillside giving a public talk before thousands. Just as Matthew 16:18-19 applies to a single individual, Peter, so Matthew 18:18 was spoken to a select few, the proto-Magisterium of the Catholic Church, and the purpose was to highlight the infallible authority they would have as leaders of His Church.
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