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RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 12, 2015 at 11:36 pm (This post was last modified: July 12, 2015 at 11:37 pm by Dystopia.)
I wasn't saying that people shouldn't be able to make their own decisions, but it's still frustrating - I don't know how it's like to be a doctor, but watching someone dying in front of you can be extremely hard and for a brief moment you may instinctively act to save that person even if you know the consequences.
Yes, people can die if they wish to, they can refuse any medical procedure they want to, but does that justify firing someone or just ruining their career forever? I accept the fact people want to die, what irritates me is that religionists are purposefully picking on someone for doing the most sane thing on earth - Saving lives. "Ohhhhhhhhhh I'm being oppressed because my life was saved, how sad"
Know this - If you're unconscious and I'm not aware of your religion, you do not have a right to sue me because I assumed the most rational thing - That you would consent. Indeed, consenting when unconscious is complicated - Legislators and jurisprudence have created a thing called "presumed consent", which consists in the doctor (or the person with the task at hand) assuming what the average person would consent to or not, and then applying it to that case - The average person would most likely consent to a blood transfusion, but would not consent to, for example, amputating a leg when there's other alternatives. Obviously, it's impossible to wake up everybody to ask for consent, sometimes there's no time, so if I have no info on your religion, you can't sue me even i fyou are a JW.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 12, 2015 at 11:53 pm (This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 12:11 am by JuliaL.)
(July 12, 2015 at 11:36 pm)Dystopia Wrote:
I wasn't saying that people shouldn't be able to make their own decisions, but it's still frustrating - I don't know how it's like to be a doctor, but watching someone dying in front of you can be extremely hard and for a brief moment you may instinctively act to save that person even if you know the consequences.
Yes, people can die if they wish to, they can refuse any medical procedure they want to, but does that justify firing someone or just ruining their career forever? I accept the fact people want to die, what irritates me is that religionists are purposefully picking on someone for doing the most sane thing on earth - Saving lives. "Ohhhhhhhhhh I'm being oppressed because my life was saved, how sad"
Know this - If you're unconscious and I'm not aware of your religion, you do not have a right to sue me because I assumed the most rational thing - That you would consent.
Indeed, consenting when unconscious is complicated - Legislators and jurisprudence have created a thing called "presumed consent", which consists in the doctor (or the person with the task at hand) assuming what the average person would consent to or not, and then applying it to that case - The average person would most likely consent to a blood transfusion,
but would not consent to, for example, amputating a leg when there's other alternatives. Obviously, it's impossible to wake up everybody to ask for consent, sometimes there's no time, so if I have no info on your religion, you can't sue me even i fyou are a JW.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
Knock him out first.
Oh....wait....he might NOT be a JW.
Knock them all out first... then you're covered.
So how, exactly, does God know that She's NOT a brain in a vat?
RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 13, 2015 at 12:06 am
JW's have a pretty high turnover rate (compared to other faiths), it might temper my first impulse to let them croak. Finding out a godless baby eating homo atheist saved their hide might get some introspection going as to the fucked up nature of JW in the first place.
Meh,
fuck 'em.
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 13, 2015 at 8:02 pm (This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 8:03 pm by Aractus.)
(July 12, 2015 at 10:45 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Imagine the following scenario:
I'm a doctor working at the ER and a patient comes in, his life is at stake and in desperate need of a blood transfusion.
When I'm about to order the nurses to start the whole procedure and perform the transfusion to save the patient's life, he proudly says "I'm a Jehovah's witness, I don't accept blood transfusions". He then faints and his life is slipping away.
Scared about the situation, but committed to fulfill my ethics of preserving and saving human lives at all cost, I still perform the transfusion, hoping that the person would regret later or at least I'll feel like a better person because I didn't allow someone to die in vain.
The patient wakes up, realizes his life has been wrongly saved, and acknowledges he's going to hell. He then sues me for doing my job. That's right, I am being used for saving someone's life, for following my ethics code and not allowing another human being to die.
Niceness aside, this is just idiotic. People have the right to be mad for getting their lives saved, but should a capable doctor be suspended, fire and ruin his career because a religionist decided he couldn't have his life? I find this very confusing.
Rubbish people have a right to request not to be treated for an illness, and doctors that perform operations against the wishes of their clients (or without their clients informed consent where getting the patients consent is practical) deserve to be sued. Do you think a 96 year old cancer patient should be forced to endure chemotherapy against his wishes too?
(July 12, 2015 at 10:45 pm)Dystopia Wrote: To think this actually happens is disturbing. But it gets worse, some people want their children to not have blood transfusions.
This isn't an argument as much as getting something off my chest because I find it sad and sick. How does society lead with this and people literally being sued for saving others' life?
That's a completely different matter. Parents who refuse life-saving treatments for their children can and do get criminally prosecuted.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
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RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 13, 2015 at 8:29 pm
Oh please spare me the politically correct lecture that I'm tired of hearing about - I'm perfectly aware doctors can't perform anything against their patient's wishes, I was merely addressing an already troubling scenario that has the potential to affect people negatively and shows how irrational religious belief makes you (in some cases). Why the hell does someone choose to die when they can live without any negative consequences other than a troubling memory of an isolated accident that required a blood transfusion and a trip to the ER? Doesn't this make you frustrated with the world and society? Or are you different to the fact some people are so self-destructive it makes us all wonder?
I am not putting into question people's choices, I'm questioning why they make dumb choices in the first place.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you
RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 13, 2015 at 8:36 pm
(July 12, 2015 at 11:36 pm)Dystopia Wrote: I wasn't saying that people shouldn't be able to make their own decisions, but it's still frustrating - I don't know how it's like to be a doctor, but watching someone dying in front of you can be extremely hard and for a brief moment you may instinctively act to save that person even if you know the consequences.
Yes, people can die if they wish to, they can refuse any medical procedure they want to, but does that justify firing someone or just ruining their career forever? I accept the fact people want to die, what irritates me is that religionists are purposefully picking on someone for doing the most sane thing on earth - Saving lives. "Ohhhhhhhhhh I'm being oppressed because my life was saved, how sad"
Know this - If you're unconscious and I'm not aware of your religion, you do not have a right to sue me because I assumed the most rational thing - That you would consent. Indeed, consenting when unconscious is complicated - Legislators and jurisprudence have created a thing called "presumed consent", which consists in the doctor (or the person with the task at hand) assuming what the average person would consent to or not, and then applying it to that case - The average person would most likely consent to a blood transfusion, but would not consent to, for example, amputating a leg when there's other alternatives. Obviously, it's impossible to wake up everybody to ask for consent, sometimes there's no time, so if I have no info on your religion, you can't sue me even i fyou are a JW.
But in the scenario you proposed, the doctor is aware of the patient's religion, and the patient expresses his lack of consent for a blood transfusion.
RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 13, 2015 at 8:47 pm (This post was last modified: July 13, 2015 at 9:28 pm by Excited Penguin.)
(July 12, 2015 at 10:45 pm)Dystopia Wrote:
Imagine the following scenario:
I'm a doctor working at the ER and a patient comes in, his life is at stake and in desperate need of a blood transfusion.
When I'm about to order the nurses to start the whole procedure and perform the transfusion to save the patient's life, he proudly says "I'm a Jehovah's witness, I don't accept blood transfusions". He then faints and his life is slipping away.
Scared about the situation, but committed to fulfill my ethics of preserving and saving human lives at all cost, I still perform the transfusion, hoping that the person would regret later or at least I'll feel like a better person because I didn't allow someone to die in vain.
The patient wakes up, realizes his life has been wrongly saved, and acknowledges he's going to hell. He then sues me for doing my job. That's right, I am being used for saving someone's life, for following my ethics code and not allowing another human being to die.
Niceness aside, this is just idiotic. People have the right to be mad for getting their lives saved, but should a capable doctor be suspended, fire and ruin his career because a religionist decided he couldn't have his life? I find this very confusing.
I'm sure this story has happened many times, but it was first narrated to me by a professor of criminal law last year during a lecture - He was called early in the morning to go to the hospital because he was in charge of the legal penal stuff related to consenting into surgeries, transfusions and other medical procedures when people have reasons to oppose it. The way he told the story and how it felt looking at a man's eyes, suffering in pain and agony until the last minute, but to everyone's despair the last words were "No!".
To think this actually happens is disturbing. But it gets worse, some people want their children to not have blood transfusions.
This isn't an argument as much as getting something off my chest because I find it sad and sick. How does society lead with this and people literally being sued for saving others' life?
If someone wishes to end their own life, they can and should be allowed to do so.
Or, rather not, not really, but it would be too difficult to change every crazy person's mind about this so as to make them not suffer for not being allowed to do it or in order to prevent their killing themselves once they're left unsupervised[when talking about a non-religious type of decision to effectively end one's life].
This is a gray area, naturally. Are you not going to allow a person in a great deal of pain the right to end their own life? Some might argue even a religious person might have the moral highground in suing the doctor in this situation, since, for them at least, their religious ideas mean too much to be ignored, even in extreme circumstances like the ones described.
A fantastic movie touching on the fringes of this dilemma[not inclusive of a religious scenario] is Amour (2012 film). I recommend it very highly.
RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 13, 2015 at 9:01 pm
Now, to be fair, you can be sued for literally anything. I could go down to the local courthouse tomorrow and sue you for $85 million dollars for "being sharply dressed and having a keen eye for fashion" or something.
How long you can maintain the suit before it gets dismissed is the real issue.
How will we know, when the morning comes, we are still human? - 2D
Don't worry, my friend. If this be the end, then so shall it be.
RE: Can I be sued for saving someone's life? Yes I can
July 13, 2015 at 9:04 pm
(July 13, 2015 at 8:47 pm)excitedpenguin Wrote:
(July 12, 2015 at 10:45 pm)Dystopia Wrote:
Imagine the following scenario:
I'm a doctor working at the ER and a patient comes in, his life is at stake and in desperate need of a blood transfusion.
When I'm about to order the nurses to start the whole procedure and perform the transfusion to save the patient's life, he proudly says "I'm a Jehovah's witness, I don't accept blood transfusions". He then faints and his life is slipping away.
Scared about the situation, but committed to fulfill my ethics of preserving and saving human lives at all cost, I still perform the transfusion, hoping that the person would regret later or at least I'll feel like a better person because I didn't allow someone to die in vain.
The patient wakes up, realizes his life has been wrongly saved, and acknowledges he's going to hell. He then sues me for doing my job. That's right, I am being used for saving someone's life, for following my ethics code and not allowing another human being to die.
Niceness aside, this is just idiotic. People have the right to be mad for getting their lives saved, but should a capable doctor be suspended, fire and ruin his career because a religionist decided he couldn't have his life? I find this very confusing.
I'm sure this story has happened many times, but it was first narrated to me by a professor of criminal law last year during a lecture - He was called early in the morning to go to the hospital because he was in charge of the legal penal stuff related to consenting into surgeries, transfusions and other medical procedures when people have reasons to oppose it. The way he told the story and how it felt looking at a man's eyes, suffering in pain and agony until the last minute, but to everyone's despair the last words were "No!".
To think this actually happens is disturbing. But it gets worse, some people want their children to not have blood transfusions.
This isn't an argument as much as getting something off my chest because I find it sad and sick. How does society lead with this and people literally being sued for saving others' life?
If someone wishes to end their own life, they can and should be allowed to do so.
Or, rather not, not really, but it would be too difficult to change every crazy person's mind about this so as to make them not suffer for not being allowed to do it or in order to prevent their killing themselves once they're left unsupervised[when talking about a non-religious type of decision to effectively end one's life].
This is a gray area, naturally. Are you not going to allow a person in a great deal of pain the right to end their own life? Some might argue even a religious person might have the moral highground in suing the doctor in this situation, since, for them at least, their religious ideas mean too much to be ignored in extreme circumstances like the one described.
A fantastic movie touching on the fringes of this dilemma[not inclusive of a religious scenario] is Amour (2012 film). I recommend it very highly.
On my medical chart I have DNR order in place under certain circumstances (I won't go into those for personal reasons) so, if those particular circumstances arise, the attending doctor knows I would rather stay dead.
