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If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best way to respond?
February 8, 2016 at 6:53 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2016 at 6:58 pm by ReptilianPeon.)
I'm pretty sure claiming "consciousness, therefore god" is an argument from ignorance, but I'm not sure that's the best way to respond. I know there must be a proper name for this argument but I either can't remember what that name is, or I've not heard the name used before. I've personally mainly been tackling the biological and psychical (e.g. astronomy/cosmology) arguments against religion. I find biology and physics more interesting and, as a result, I feel as though I've neglected the psychological side of things.
A religionist may say "How did we get from clumps of sub-atomic particles/atoms/cells to being conscious?" That would be where the "argument from ignorance" comes in. But I think that's too simplistic an answer. Or maybe I'm over thinking this.
Perhaps it is just best to say "I don't know" in relation to consciousness. Just like the only honest answer to the creation of our universe is "I don't know" (because it's arrogant to claim otherwise). I'll be interested to see how consciousness affects the many-worlds interpretation (if it is proven), but that's something we're far away from learning about right now.
Some context:
I needed a good laugh to cheer me up, so I went looking for more "I'm totally not an Islamist but I used to be a member of Hizb ut-Tahrir and I'm reluctant to condemn them" Hamza Tzortis - something I do from time to time (though less often now). His newest video, "I Am an Atheist" proves God!, was very confusing and incoherent but it at least got me thinking about consciousness. The video was full of jargon and doublespeak (which I am sure his cheer-squad don't understand either, even though they may pretend otherwise) and it made very little sense to me as a result - so I suggest not watching it. N.B. Hamza claims this argument is not "god of the gaps" but I'm pretty sure it is because it relies on us not fully understanding consciousness.
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best way to respond?
February 8, 2016 at 6:58 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2016 at 7:00 pm by ApeNotKillApe.)
Repeatedly slam them into a tree while screaming 'yeah yeah that's the ticket.'
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best wa...
February 8, 2016 at 7:24 pm
(This post was last modified: February 8, 2016 at 7:26 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Depending on the specific form it could be a cosmological, teleological, or anthropic argument. That it contains an internal argument from ignorance is par for the course from the godly camp.
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best wa...
February 8, 2016 at 8:38 pm
Quote:If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best way to respond?
Beat them unconscious and then tell them God doesn't exist. Well, you know - pin a note to their shirt or sommat.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best way to respond?
February 8, 2016 at 8:39 pm
Oh fuck sake, everyone's already in with the 'kick them in the face' jokes.
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best wa...
February 8, 2016 at 8:46 pm
(February 8, 2016 at 8:39 pm)Napoléon Wrote: Oh fuck sake, everyone's already in with the 'kick them in the face' jokes.
Dunno about anyone else, but I wasn't joking.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best wa...
February 9, 2016 at 2:47 am
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2016 at 2:49 am by robvalue.)
"God" isn't an explanation. It's a total abandonment of any kind of rational, critical investigation. And as has been said, it's always an argument from ignorance.
"Stuff is really complicated therefor God" is not even an argument. These people should replace it with, "Stuff is really complicated so I should go learn more about it, so I can reach a more informed conclusion". I'd say invite him to go study it in more detail. If he doesn't want to, that just shows he's more interested in his conclusion than the facts.
Logical arguments are never evidence, even when they're not shot through with logical fallacies.
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best way to respond?
February 9, 2016 at 7:09 am
Well Hamza is adamant "consciousness therefore god" is not "god of the gaps". In fact, he arrogantly asserts that "god of the gaps" is "an outdated Atheist clichè", as he puts it. It really worries me that people time him seriously enough to the point of worshipping him.
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best way to respond?
February 9, 2016 at 7:15 am
"Why?"
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: If someone says to me "consciousness, therefore god", what's the best wa...
February 9, 2016 at 7:27 am
(February 9, 2016 at 7:09 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Well Hamza is adamant "consciousness therefore god" is not "god of the gaps". In fact, he arrogantly asserts that "god of the gaps" is "an outdated Atheist clichè", as he puts it. It really worries me that people time him seriously enough to the point of worshipping him.
But why is it an outdated cliché? Because he doesn't like it? Also which god does consciousness support? Consciousness therefore Vishnu? What if you tell him Hinduism is more likely then Islam? That be a fun reaction to see.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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