Miracle

[paulpablo]

In the history, no one has ever recorded any statement about numbness made by some person who has experienced a severe burn. This is sufficient to prove that no one has ever said, “It feels numb.”

 
1) In recent history people have definitely made statements about severe burns causing numbness.
2)No one has records of everything anyone has ever said.
3) Saying that the absence of a statement proves the opposite is true is illogical.  You can search through history books about someone and it might never mention that person has legs, this doesn't prove they were legless.
4)You're trying to prove a miracle, you're saying the quran has information that no one could have known, it doesn't work as a miracle  if someone COULD have known.  Just the sheer fact that all you have to do to discover that 3rd degree burns cause numbness is to talk to someone who has been a victim of 3rd degree burns is enough to cast reasonable doubt on it.
Think about if this was a court case in a court of law, you're telling the judge that the only way a book could have been written is by supernatural magic, then I offer an alternative that actually the information could have been gathered by talking to people who suffered from 3rd degree burns and it doesn't have to be the result of a magic book.

[bennyboy]

That's right. And anyone with eyes and access to a cliff can see what happens when turbid fresh water enters the ocean. I think the problem is that Harris thinks everyone around the time of the Quran's creation was a fucking retard-- therefore that they could actually figure out anything must be proof of God's greatness.


Also, he picks the couple facts that seem to accord with our understanding, and ignore the Quranic statements that do not:

"Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe." Quran 16:49

lol nothing holds them up but the flow of air over a curved wing surface, causing lower air pressure above the wings. Harris' special pleading that this is a metaphor and not intended as a scientific statement in 3. . . 2. . . 1. . .

[paulpablo]

You are insisting that people of past knew about the numbness. This argument totally contradicts with what I am saying.

I do not have any historical record showing that people had knowledge about numbness and in fact you are not in position to provide any reference either. Without good evidences, all your arguments are only conjectures.

That's not how the argument happened really is it?  I didn't start a thread entitled "People in the past knew about numbness!"
You started a thread saying you had proof the quran predicted knowledge that burning hurts and severe burns cause numbness, I simply said that your claim is doubtful since all it would take to gain access to the knowledge that burning causes numbness is to ask someone who had been a victim of 3rd degree burns. 
I'm not claiming I have records of what a man said in the 1st century about his burns, I'm just saying the information would have been easy enough to obtain.
If two people, Bob and James are in a room together and Bob walks out and tells me he knows what James is wearing, my first assumption, without proof, will be that Bob looked at James, and that's why he knows what James was wearing.  I won't think, well it could be that Bob has magic powers of being able to see things without looking.
This is exactly the same case, you're telling me a miracle happened, I'm saying no, what probably happened is many thousands of people throughout ancient history suffered severe burns, and out of those people quite a few of them reported how it felt.

It's magic miracle book vs someone turning around to someone and saying "Hey this burn feels a bit numb"

[IATIA]

I simply said that your claim is doubtful since all it would take to gain access to the knowledge that burning causes numbness is to ask someone who had been a victim of 3rd degree burns.

I worked the burn unit at Brooke Army Medical Center for a while and even with piles of drugs, those patients were in immense pain.

[paulpablo]

1. Brain processes the signals, which it receives from different sensory organs.
2. Brain is unable to produce sense of pain, vision, etc. in the absence of these sensory organs.
3. People were thinking that brain could feel pain of burning ALL BY ITSELF but Quran is saying NO! Without the skin, you cannot have the sensation of burning.
4. Budda (500 B.C), Plato(428-348 B.C.), Anaxagoras (428 B.C.), Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), Herophilus (335- 280 BC), Erasistratus (310-250 BC), Lucretius (90-53 B.C.), Galen (A.D.129-199), Huang Ti Nei Ching Su Wen, eighth and fifth centuries B.C., and even people like René Descartes are few names among giant thinkers who have perfectly missed the skin in all their observations of pain. This fact becomes obvious through the writings of these great philosophers, which reflect nothing about skin. That is a sufficient evidence showing that people in the past did not know that if skin burn to a certain extent it loses the sensation of burning.

Do you think any of these ancient people knew that burning your skin hurt?  Do you think they knew that if you burn nothing it doesn't hurt?
So based on your answers from those two questions, do you believe that they knew if you had all your skin burned it would hurt even more if the skin was replaced and burned again?
The quran isn't mentioning neurons, it isn't saying that when the skin is burned it will be numb, or deadened, it is simply saying that burning skin hurts and burning more skin hurts more.

[IATIA]

But you did not know only a few moments ago that salt water and fresh water do not mix in natural environment.

Yes they do. Just because it takes time does not mean that saltwater and freshwater do not mix. They do mix and there is no barrier, unless you think time is a barrier.

[bennyboy]

But you did not know only a few moments ago that salt water and fresh water do not mix in natural environment.

Yes they do.  Just because it takes time does not mean that saltwater and freshwater do not mix.  They do mix and there is no barrier, unless you think time is a barrier.

No no, you don't understand.  It's not the FACT of the non-mixing of saltwater and freshwater that is the miracle.  It's that a bunch of desert people wrote about it as a fact 1500 years ago, when people knew nothin' about nothin', that's the miracle.

[IATIA]

People with missing limbs complain of pain in those limbs.

[bennyboy]

People with missing limbs complain of pain in those limbs.

And I'll bet the muslims knew that.  It's a miracle! They knew about neuroscience before scientists did!

[robvalue]

If they didn't know it, they couldn't have written it down.