Islam

[Belacqua]

I’m more prone to supporting individuals who do good despite affiliation to religious belief than those who rely on it like a ball and chain.

What about people who rely on religion like a support and a lamp? 

Do you think Ilhan Omar's goodness is necessarily in spite of her religion? Do you think it is a ball and chain for her, or a support and guide?

[Foxaèr]

My response doesn’t change.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Ilhan Omar is one of the most progressive members of Congress. She is in favor of supporting gay people's rights, Medicare for All, a Green New Deal, reduced militarism, and other important policies.

Yup and those ideas are either not the product or in case of gay rights in total contrast to Islam  

Do you consider Omar and Buttar to be silly? Are they, in your view, not really Muslim? Though they are real progressives and the US would greatly benefit from having more people like them in power, should we nonetheless call them dangerous for the world?

Yup as muslims . As progressive no . Those things are not compatible and simply are proof Omar and Buttar are better than their religion .

So it's possible to be Muslim and progressive.

 Nope Islam is regressive . You can only be a progressive by Ignoring it 

So perhaps what you really object to is the Middle East, and its customs, not Islam.

Nope Islam doesn't become less regressive . It's simply are proof Omar and Buttar are better than their religion 

Would you vote for Omar or Buttar?

 For the progressive policies yup .With the knowledge they live contrary to many of the ideals of their religion 

It's relevant because it appears that a Muslim can in fact be progressive and have good political policies, yet you still oppose her views. 

Nope they can only live in contradiction 

 Can a Muslim be a good person while holding Muslim views, or not? Is Ilhan Omar a bad person because she holds views that are, according to you, childish? Or is she a good person despite holding those views? Do you respect the work that Shahid Buttar has done, although he has never renounced Islam? Or do you think all his progressive work is insufficient to make him a good person, because he's a Muslim

Yup they can be a good person but only as long as they never actually live out what their holy book demands .

This is relevant because you seem to be opposing something big called Islam, but are unwilling to say anything specific or discuss any individual Muslim. 

Yup because as an ideology it's regressive . Why would we discuss individuals? 

I hope you're not avoiding these serious questions.

These aren't serious questions 

What do you think I want you to state? I only want you to say what you really think.

I'm sure 

But I see that you're unwilling to specify anything which is intrinsic to Islam which you disapprove of. You're unwilling to specify why you think people who are Muslim must be childish or anti-progressive. You only want to make blanket general statements expressing your feelings. OK.

Seriously i don't know anything at all . The muslim is clear in it's anti progressive ideas .That muslims choose not follow those views is not evidence against Islams regressive views only that some Muslims are better than their religion .

[Belacqua]

My response doesn’t change.

Yes, I think you're being very terse because you know you're in danger of sounding like a bigot. You don't want to say that bad religious views make Muslims bad.

This is common among prejudiced people. Only bad things can be attributed to the thing they disapprove of. If there is anything good associated with it, that good thing must be attributed to something else. So a person's religion gets all the blame, and none of the credit. 

But you're unwilling to name anything specific about Islam which is intrinsically bad, and you won't differentiate between non-religious tradition in Muslim countries and essential religious views. This allows you to continue with a vague general view that Islam is bad, but not support your argument at all. 

Granted, on this forum that's typical. Anti-religious emotions don't have to be supported with facts.

[Fake Messiah]

Yeah, Belacqua, stop with your fallacies. We all know there are liberal Muslims but they are a minority and exclusively in non-muslim countries and they are liberal in spite of Islam and not because of it. It is enough to look at what is happening in Chechnya right now:



I mean where are all those gay loving Muslims to save those gays defending them with their pro-gay Koranic verses if they are such a majority? Do you know where they are, Belacqua? In your dreams.

[The Architect Of Fate]

It's relevant if you rule out voting for a Muslim even when her policies are good. Or do you somehow insist, despite the evidence, that a Muslim can't have good policies?

The policies are good because they are progressive , Nothing progressive flows from Islam 

How strong is your anti-theist prejudice? Would you vote for a Catholic priest who supported good political policies?

Nothing to do with bias Islam is Regressive . Catholicism is also regressive . The fact is most people don't follow it regressive dictates 

So you agree that a person can hold Muslim beliefs and be a good person? That holding those beliefs doesn't make a person childish or anti-progressive?

Yes Muslims can be good people . But only so long as they actually act on their beliefs

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What about people who rely on religion like a support and a lamp? 

Then those people are fools 

Do you think Ilhan Omar's goodness is necessarily in spite of her religion? Do you think it is a ball and chain for her, or a support and guide?

In Spite her religion sure as hell didn't give her concept of gay rights 

Yes, I think you're being very terse because you know you're in danger of sounding like a bigot. You don't want to say that bad religious views make Muslims bad.

Stop putting words in his mouth and no he's not a bigot 

This is common among prejudiced people. Only bad things can be attributed to the thing they disapprove of. If there is anything good associated with it, that good thing must be attributed to something else. So a person's religion gets all the blame, and none of the credit. 

Nope No prejudice Islam has produced no progressive views . Those views come from outside and can only be followed in contrast with it .

But you're unwilling to name anything specific about Islam which is intrinsically bad, and you won't differentiate between non-religious tradition in Muslim countries and essential religious views. This allows you to continue with a vague general view that Islam is bad, but not support your argument at all. 

 Seriously this proves you know nothing . Because none of the regressive tradition are non religious . Nope he's given all the support he needs .Your simply an ass probing for accusations .

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Yeah, Belacqua, stop with your fallacies. We all know there are liberal Muslims but they are a minority and exclusively in non-muslim countries and they are liberal in spite of Islam and not because of it. It is enough to look at what is happening in Chechnya right now:



I mean where are all those gay loving Muslims to save those gays defending them with their pro-gay Koranic verses if they are such a majority? Do you know where they are, Belacqua? In your dreams.

But...But that's not intersect to Islam . It just so happen most of the worlds agree homosexuality is a sin .

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A Muslim can be a good person .Good or bad has nothing to do with religion . 

A Muslim can hold progressive views so long as they ignore the conflict with their Islamic views 

A Muslim can be intelligent as long he ignores the absurdity of is religion 

A Muslim should be tolerated as long as they ignore those views or never act on the more destructive elements of their religion

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Prepare yourself for Islam apologetics . The most dominant will be "but that's not Islam" . Despite pretty much every majority country doing it . Despite Scholars and clerics insisting it's Islamic .

[GrandizerII]

Islam, like Christianity and many other religions, can be "good" or "bad" depending on how each adherent perceives their religion/faith. You can't separate one's interpretation of their religion from their religion. I know some Muslims who have argued that there is nothing in the Qur'an that condemns homosexuality, and so for them Islam discourages them from hating on gay people. I will admit they seem to be a tiny minority but that's probably because of certain strong cultural factors that foster anti-homosexual prejudices. Remember that not too long ago, even the Western world was guilty of extreme prejudice against homosexual people (and still are in some respects).

Also, FTR I come from the Middle East. Where I come from, Muslims don't oppress non-Muslims, and in fact Christians and Muslims get along amazingly well over there (compared to the Western world at least).

[Belacqua]

Remember that not too long ago, even the Western world was guilty of extreme prejudice against homosexual people (and still are in some respects).

This has been a remarkable change for me. I'm old enough to remember when anti-gay prejudice was widespread and unashamedly expressed. 

The interesting thing is that the most adamantly anti-gay people were the "conservatives" who were concerned about preserving "Western values." Now the "Western values" people use anti-gay prejudice in the Middle East as proof that "the West" is superior, because we are all so tolerant. They were dragged, kicking and screaming, toward tolerance, and now they barely remember that it hasn't been eternal. 

This forum is educational for me, because all the other English-speaking circles I participate in are more progressive. The kind of unashamed anti-religion bigotry that Sungula and others here express would be cringe-making in progressive circles -- or seen as downright dangerous. Trump-like.  

I suspect that in a couple more decades the anti-religion bigotry will be seen in the way that anti-gay or anti-Jewish bigotry is viewed today. (That's if we can keep going forward.) 

Mostly I'm in touch on line with progressives and scholars of various types. These are the people who were earliest in overcoming their gay prejudice. When I worked in the art world in NYC in the 1980s, it was more common to be gay than straight. We figured out when I was working at the Cloisters (the Metropolitan Museum's medieval branch), that I was the only straight white man on staff at the time. Few of these people are strongly religious themselves, but they find Dawkins-type atheism childish and anti-Muslim speeches ignorant. 

Now that I think of it, the only deeply religious guy I'm in touch with is a Jewish gay man. He was Allen Ginsberg's boyfriend for a long time. He teaches advanced mathematics for a living, and is also a deeply knowledgable Dante scholar. Just a splendid guy. So we can see that he's not prejudiced against STEM, homosexuality, or other religions. And his Jewish values are for him a light and a guide, and for me to say to him that theism is foolish would be unthinkable.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Do you think Ilhan Omar's goodness is necessarily in spite of her religion?

I think anyone's goodness is necessarily in spite of their religion.  The further individuals move from the tenets of their tradition belief, the easier they are to get along with. Ms. Omar doesn't advocate chopping off the hands of thieves, for instance. Marvin Heir doesn't support the stoning of adulterers. Hell's bells, even the current Pope has said it's not his place to judge gay people.

Nothing has changed regarding what these three religions have to say about hand chopping, stoning, and homosexuality.  What has changed is the rejection of the more unsavoury elements of these religions by people like Omar.  She is a good person for rejecting part of her religion as opposed to embracing it.

Boru

[Abaddon_ire]

This forum is educational for me, because all the other English-speaking circles I participate in are more progressive. The kind of unashamed anti-religion bigotry that Sungula and others here express would be cringe-making in progressive circles -- or seen as downright dangerous. Trump-like.  

Of what utility is religion? It does nothing, achieves nothing, says nothing useful about anything, propagates all manner of imaginary entities, eats resources merely to keep itself alive, protects and defends violence, murder, war, rape, child abuse and so forth.

Why do you want that?