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IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting"
#1
IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting"
Quote:Islamic State (IS) has released an audio message it says is from its leader, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, which if confirmed would be the first in months.
The message urges Muslims to emigrate to the "caliphate" it has proclaimed in areas of Syria and Iraq. A reference to the Yemen conflict means it is recent.

...

"Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting. No-one should believe that the war that we are waging is the war of the Islamic State. It is the war of all Muslims, but the Islamic State is spearheading it. It is the war of Muslims against infidels."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-32744070


I found this BBC article on reddit.

The conversations on this topic people seem to have whenever it gets brought up are quite funny to me. People often mindlessly defend Islam, and indeed all 'moderate muslims' in the name of nothing but political correctness often times. They come out with things like "99 percent of muslims are moderate, IS doesn't represent them" (I got this exact example from the comments on reddit, I'll link below this paragraph). But, is that the truth? 99 percent of muslims are not moderate. Not anywhere near it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/commen...s_never_a/

In the same comment thread someone posted this, in response to the claim that 99% of muslims are 'moderate':

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/wwjtd/2015/...-apostasy/

Quote:FAITH: Do 36% of Muslims support Sharia Law and/or death for apostasy?

[Image: B8h_mmFCUAErtlR.jpg]

This is not a handful of extremists.  This is a real and massive problem in the parts of the world where Islam is most ingrained.

Now, let's put this into perspective. I think most of us here would agree, that support for Sharia law, and death for apostasy, aren't 'moderate views'. When people go on like these barbaric viewpoints are in the minority in Islam, they may well be correct. But even if the 36% is questionable (and it is according to the above article), it still looks like a good estimate and the data is taken from Pew research. 312 million people (the 36% referred to) is not a small number. 312 million people who identify as muslims, do not hold moderate views.

That is a fucking frightening number of people, and just from the above data, it isn't even the full representation of muslims across the world. I'd like to point out, that with the above data the article author mentions that:

Quote:His sources all seem good, as does his assessment of Cenk Uygur’s objections to Harris, but with a caveat: the blog post at Believers vs. Non-believers and Shermer both say “36% of Muslims” when they should say “of Muslims in the Middle East and parts of Europe.”  The table only tackles those places.  There are Muslims in other countries that are likely far more moderate which would bring the global number down

For starters, the table addresses more than just the middle east and Europe, it has places such as Thailand, Indonesia and Malaysia, who all have significant muslim populations. Second, it's a completely baseless assertion that other countries (like the USA) would have 'more moderate muslims'. There's nothing at all to suggest this would be the case.


So...

When IS says Islam was never meant to be a religion of peace, when such a significant proportion of muslims (even if it is the 'minority') hold such barbaric ideals, it fucks me off to no end that people even bother to defend 'ordinary muslims'. People like to make out like Islam is this peace loving religion, and that only a very small number of muslims are violent, backward thinking morons. The simple truth is that's bullshit. A hell of a lot of muslims across the world are violent, backward thinking morons. According to the above more than a third.

People come out with the utter crap that is "most muslims are peaceful, Islam is a religion of peace", and they try to make out like it isn't representative when we see things like the Islamic State, or people being beheaded and stoned all across the middle east. Please direct these asshats to the above, and get them to tell you that the 312 million people who believe in backwards and violent practices aren't representative of their fucked up religion. Such a significant proportion of people, regardless of whether it's the majority or not, cannot be ignored, and fuck these people who try to downplay how much of a problem these views are for the rest of the 'civilised' world.
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#2
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fightin
I think it's better to think of it as a spectrum, with ISIS at one end and secular non-practicing Muslims (yes, they do actually exist) at the other. They'll all "Muslim" though, none are more Muslim or less Muslim. There's no central authority in Islam (equivalent to the Christian Pope) to set the standard of what "a real Muslim is". If you're a peaceful Muslim, some Imam will represent you, if you're a violent Muslim, another Imam will represent you. The problem is every Imam seems to have their own views that indoctrinates their particular community of Muslims a little differently.

Even if you're going to argue that most Muslims are peaceful, the ideology isn't. I was saying this to my friend the other day, the problem is that the religion holds a lot of power while two dozen countries have it as an infallible state religion. It's a political ideology, and like any other political ideology people are going to disagree with it and flat out dislike it. I don't care if that's "offensive" to point that out. I have more sympathy with the unveiled women and gays who are publicly executed, than I have for the weak butthurt egos of Muslims who can't see why I'm pissed off about it. I'm unapologetic about that.
"Adulthood is like looking both ways before you cross the road, and then getting hit by an airplane"  - sarcasm_only

"Ironically like the nativist far-Right, which despises multiculturalism, but benefits from its ideas of difference to scapegoat the other and to promote its own white identity politics; these postmodernists, leftists, feminists and liberals also use multiculturalism, to side with the oppressor, by demanding respect and tolerance for oppression characterised as 'difference', no matter how intolerable."
- Maryam Namazie

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#3
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fightin
I usually see religion as a tool/ideology that can be good or bad depending on the individual - This isn't political correctness, it's reality since there are religious people will all kinds of diverse ideas.

I think the numbers of moderate Muslims are largely lowered to appease liberal-capitalists but I also believe the majority of them are not fundies. There's beliefs in every religion to fit your worldview - Want to be a gay queer Muslim? I'm sure there's a group for that. Want to behead the infidels and beat women? There's a group for that. Want to promote secularism and Islam together? There's probably a group for that.

As for the ideology being dangerous - Here's the thing, there is no ideology that can't or hasn't (hardly) been spread by force, it's just the natural state humans live in. The fact political ideologies sometimes don't have books saying "kill people to promote the idea" hasn't stopped individuals from rebelling against the establishment and forcing new ideologies - In fact, that's how liberalism came into practise after the French Revolution.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#4
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fightin
I think the same thing,the ideology of Islam is not very peaceful,those Muslims who claim to be peaceful are the ones who do not actually practice Islam in fact they don't know much about their religion,i feel that the more devout a follower is the more violent he is and even if he is not violent he would be less tolerant of other beliefs,Good and bad people exist everywhere in all religions,the bad ones use the violent verses effectively to persuade their good companions
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.”
― Voltaire
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#5
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting&q...
Islam is exactly what Muslims make it, nothing more, nothing less. As an abstract entity, it doesn't mean anything at all.

I don't think anyone has the authority to say what "Islam" is and isn't. Anyone can call themselves a Muslim and no one can rule that they are not. All you can say is what Muslims are currently like. If 36% of Muslims want Sharia law, then those Muslims are a dangerous, barbaric group. You could say that current Islam has very dangerous elements.
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#6
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting&q...
(May 15, 2015 at 9:12 am)robvalue Wrote: Islam is exactly what Muslims make it, nothing more, nothing less. As an abstract entity, it doesn't mean anything at all.

I don't think anyone has the authority to say what "Islam" is and isn't. Anyone can call themselves a Muslim and no one can rule that they are not. All you can say is what Muslims are currently like. If 36% of Muslims want Sharia law, then those Muslims are a dangerous, barbaric group. You could say that current Islam has very dangerous elements.

Pretty much and using a religious text to run a country is also a bad thing it turns a society regressive but looking at the middle east as of now they are getting some what better.
But it needs to happen even faster countries that use religion need to dump it and be secular. 
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today. 


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#7
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting&q...
The fact that Muslims can't even agree about whether Islam is about being peaceful or about killing everyone you feel like goes to show that it actually means nothing. All they have in common is a book, and neither can say they have the "right interpretation" because there isn't such a thing. There is no one who can judge who is right. (Well there is perhaps one, but he's conspicuously absent.)

Maybe each side should write a new book, saying what they actually believe instead of both sharing a book which they argue over and claiming to be nothing to do with each other.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#8
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting"
Thanks for the stats, Napo. I had no idea there would be that many not-exactly-moderate muslims.

It's a situation that we have to live with. I think those numbers can only come down through proper secular education... and that comes with globalization and global awareness... but globalization also has its own plethora of problems, so it will take time... generations...
And time is running out as the main power source behind globalization - OIL - is also running out and may dry up within as little as 2 generations.

Also, there must be a local willingness to education... and that requires the educated to show the uneducated how life can be so much better with education - again, the global forces at work on a local level - perhaps it's a young guy who leaves the village to get a better education and then returns and spawns a generation of university students; or someone from the outside that shows them.... of the government that implements schools. Money is also a requirement... if the families need the labor force for sustenance, no one goes to any college and the current situation drags on... When in such dire need, youngsters seem to be easy prey for extremists as they, sometimes, pay something to the families... and things go south.
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#9
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting&q...
(May 15, 2015 at 9:12 am)robvalue Wrote: Islam is exactly what Muslims make it, nothing more, nothing less. As an abstract entity, it doesn't mean anything at all.

I don't think anyone has the authority to say what "Islam" is and isn't. Anyone can call themselves a Muslim and no one can rule that they are not. All you can say is what Muslims are currently like. If 36% of Muslims want Sharia law, then those Muslims are a dangerous, barbaric group. You could say that current Islam has very dangerous elements.

A major part of those who are Muslims now are also what Islam had been and is has made them.   As an abstract entity, Islam is a set of customs, beliefs and world views that might have been what Muslims of the past had made them, but is also making major facets Muslims what they are now.
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#10
RE: IS: "Islam was never a religion of peace. Islam is the religion of fighting"
Every religious book is a Rorschach test. Sad to see so many willing to kill over different visions of it.

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