RE: How Do You Get Over Death?
August 23, 2015 at 2:41 pm
(This post was last modified: August 23, 2015 at 2:46 pm by MTL.)
At one point in the thread, "Atheism Doesn't Equal Depression",
robvalue asked the general question of participants,
what "meaning", specifically, was it,
that people felt that believing in God, provided:
" I know religion heavily forces people to think there is no meaning without God,
but what exactly is this meaning in the first place? "
This was the answer I gave him:
" They (theists) will tell you the "meaning" is the privilege of being able to praise God for eternity,
but I'm not buying it.
Ironically, I think if they were to be honest, the real "meaning" that is provided by believing in God and Heaven,
is actually something that caters to some pretty base human traits:
1. Immortality, safety and comfort, for all eternity, in paradise (laziness, entitlement)
2. And, by contrast, watching those whom you deemed "sinners" be punished, for all eternity (revenge)
3. Having everything explained, sharing in God's omniscience (control)
4. And it's also the feather in your cap of knowing that YOU were "part" of God's Plan, all along (ego)
IE: Heaven couldn't have occurred without you. "
robvalue replied to me:
" So to summarize, it gives meaning by making you feel really special and important. You're right, I think that is pretty much it. Feeding of the ego.
I'm quite happy to accept that ultimately I am of no importance to anything, but that I can make a very real difference in the short time available to those around me. I guess that is not enough for some people. "
I think this hits the nail on the head....if not in EVERY case, then in MANY.
I know that, personally, since leaving Christianity, I have learned my own real fallibility,
I have learned real humility, I have learned my own insignificance.
At first, to someone who has been raised believing that "God Loves Me" and that I will someday be in Heaven,
while others are in Hell,
...it was a devastating and depressing blow to my ego.
Religion, IMO, tends to breed egotism, but, very sadly,
most Theists actually believe the opposite about themselves:
They believe that they are humble
...when they are actually egotists and don't even see it.
They call themselves sinners and espouse values of not being judgmental,
but, in my experience, are far more judgmental than your average secular Joe.
It is a classic example of the 'cognitive dissonance' I see exemplified in Religion, again and again.
They call their unsubstantiated and illogical beliefs, the "TRUTH"
...and they call proven, logical truth, "LIES".
When confronted with the reality that they are not special, at all,
and that no-one is coming to "Save" them, after all,
it can be devastating, indeed.
No wonder they are so screwed up.
So, to return to the point of this thread,
ego again pertains to the answer.
You ask in your original post:
" After the huge support structure called "Religion" was taken away from your life, how did you get over the thought of everything you have ever done having no effect on the Universe as a whole. "
Again, if you were raised without ego....it doesn't matter.
You never had an inflated ego, so realizing that your life ultimately doesn't seem to make any difference,
doesn't matter.
If a former Theist is still getting over the loss of that "support structure" as you mentioned,
then perhaps realizing ego is a part of the damage incurred as a result of Theism,
is a step they haven't yet reached;
and their full transfer to Atheism is not yet complete;
the ego created by Theism still lingers, even though the Theology is gone.
The cause is removed, in other words,
but not yet all of its effects.
So, for a "recovering theist", still making the transition,
it can smart a bit, to confront these issues.
When they let go of their ego, it will hurt less.
For example:
Ironically, I now find the idea of the world carrying on without even missing me, quite comforting,
and it is focusing on this fact that will bring me solace in my last moments on Earth, I hope.
If I meet my end, laying alone in a bed in a hospital ward, as I suspect I might,
I will reflect on my own life in the days preceding my death, if I have a choice,
and I will allow myself to feel sad that it is over, of course;
(but overall I will be more happy that my life occurred, in the first place).
However, if I am allowed the clarity of mind,
in my last moments, I plan to derive comfort from meditating, specifically,
on the world carrying on as usual;
on all the mundane happenings, occurring, right that very minute,
outside the hospital walls:
I will consider the traffic passing by; the man walking his dog pressing the pedestrian signal button;
I will consider the smartly-dressed businesswoman digging in her purse for change for the parking meter;
I will consider the noisy garbage truck;
I will consider the Tim Horton's coffee shop on the corner where four teenagers are cutting class from the nearby high-school;
I will consider that someone is returning to grocery store because they realized only once they got home that they bought all the ingredients to make tacos, EXCEPT the taco-shells;
I will consider someone checking their balance slip as they walk away from an ATM;
I will consider someone getting home from work and badly needing to go pee before they do anything else;
I will consider a middle-aged man stopping at the drugstore to pick up his wife's prescription;
I know that none of these people were even aware that I ever existed,
and they will never know that I existed,
and somehow, I find it takes the drama and hurt out of the thought of imminent death;
it puts it in perspective.
Lots of people die, every day of my life, in my own city....and I've been oblivious to almost all of them.
Why should my own death be any different?
Why not just relax and not worry about it?
Worrying won't prevent death from occurring.
In a few minutes I won't be aware of anything at all.
So I'll just relax, close my eyes,
and leave this earth while listening to that one happy, busy little bee,
buzzing around in the sunshine outside my window screen.
By contrast,
my own grandmother, a devout (and miserable) Baptist,
and enormous egotist,
is in her 90s....and is "circling the drain" as my dad says...
but she has always been very defensive and utterly closed-minded about discussing the redundancy of religion,
preferring to more and more fervently and stubbornly assert her faith,
and getting increasingly agitated as time goes on;
(which, she doesn't seem to realize, indicates a LACK of faith, not a surplus)
she is obviously terrified of death
because she has always been the most important thing, to herself,
and the thought of herself coming to an end, is unthinkable.
But she can't fix this, about herself,
because to fix it, you first have to recognize the problem,
and how can she recognize that the problem is her ego,
when she is labouring under the misapprehension
that she actually thinks God is the most important thing in her life?
She's never been honest with herself:
She doesn't even realize that the only reason she ever "believed in God" at all,
was not for His glory...but for her OWN.
robvalue asked the general question of participants,
what "meaning", specifically, was it,
that people felt that believing in God, provided:
" I know religion heavily forces people to think there is no meaning without God,
but what exactly is this meaning in the first place? "
This was the answer I gave him:
" They (theists) will tell you the "meaning" is the privilege of being able to praise God for eternity,
but I'm not buying it.
Ironically, I think if they were to be honest, the real "meaning" that is provided by believing in God and Heaven,
is actually something that caters to some pretty base human traits:
1. Immortality, safety and comfort, for all eternity, in paradise (laziness, entitlement)
2. And, by contrast, watching those whom you deemed "sinners" be punished, for all eternity (revenge)
3. Having everything explained, sharing in God's omniscience (control)
4. And it's also the feather in your cap of knowing that YOU were "part" of God's Plan, all along (ego)
IE: Heaven couldn't have occurred without you. "
robvalue replied to me:
" So to summarize, it gives meaning by making you feel really special and important. You're right, I think that is pretty much it. Feeding of the ego.
I'm quite happy to accept that ultimately I am of no importance to anything, but that I can make a very real difference in the short time available to those around me. I guess that is not enough for some people. "
I think this hits the nail on the head....if not in EVERY case, then in MANY.
I know that, personally, since leaving Christianity, I have learned my own real fallibility,
I have learned real humility, I have learned my own insignificance.
At first, to someone who has been raised believing that "God Loves Me" and that I will someday be in Heaven,
while others are in Hell,
...it was a devastating and depressing blow to my ego.
Religion, IMO, tends to breed egotism, but, very sadly,
most Theists actually believe the opposite about themselves:
They believe that they are humble
...when they are actually egotists and don't even see it.
They call themselves sinners and espouse values of not being judgmental,
but, in my experience, are far more judgmental than your average secular Joe.
It is a classic example of the 'cognitive dissonance' I see exemplified in Religion, again and again.
They call their unsubstantiated and illogical beliefs, the "TRUTH"
...and they call proven, logical truth, "LIES".
When confronted with the reality that they are not special, at all,
and that no-one is coming to "Save" them, after all,
it can be devastating, indeed.
No wonder they are so screwed up.
So, to return to the point of this thread,
ego again pertains to the answer.
You ask in your original post:
" After the huge support structure called "Religion" was taken away from your life, how did you get over the thought of everything you have ever done having no effect on the Universe as a whole. "
Again, if you were raised without ego....it doesn't matter.
You never had an inflated ego, so realizing that your life ultimately doesn't seem to make any difference,
doesn't matter.
If a former Theist is still getting over the loss of that "support structure" as you mentioned,
then perhaps realizing ego is a part of the damage incurred as a result of Theism,
is a step they haven't yet reached;
and their full transfer to Atheism is not yet complete;
the ego created by Theism still lingers, even though the Theology is gone.
The cause is removed, in other words,
but not yet all of its effects.
So, for a "recovering theist", still making the transition,
it can smart a bit, to confront these issues.
When they let go of their ego, it will hurt less.
For example:
Ironically, I now find the idea of the world carrying on without even missing me, quite comforting,
and it is focusing on this fact that will bring me solace in my last moments on Earth, I hope.
If I meet my end, laying alone in a bed in a hospital ward, as I suspect I might,
I will reflect on my own life in the days preceding my death, if I have a choice,
and I will allow myself to feel sad that it is over, of course;
(but overall I will be more happy that my life occurred, in the first place).
However, if I am allowed the clarity of mind,
in my last moments, I plan to derive comfort from meditating, specifically,
on the world carrying on as usual;
on all the mundane happenings, occurring, right that very minute,
outside the hospital walls:
I will consider the traffic passing by; the man walking his dog pressing the pedestrian signal button;
I will consider the smartly-dressed businesswoman digging in her purse for change for the parking meter;
I will consider the noisy garbage truck;
I will consider the Tim Horton's coffee shop on the corner where four teenagers are cutting class from the nearby high-school;
I will consider that someone is returning to grocery store because they realized only once they got home that they bought all the ingredients to make tacos, EXCEPT the taco-shells;
I will consider someone checking their balance slip as they walk away from an ATM;
I will consider someone getting home from work and badly needing to go pee before they do anything else;
I will consider a middle-aged man stopping at the drugstore to pick up his wife's prescription;
I know that none of these people were even aware that I ever existed,
and they will never know that I existed,
and somehow, I find it takes the drama and hurt out of the thought of imminent death;
it puts it in perspective.
Lots of people die, every day of my life, in my own city....and I've been oblivious to almost all of them.
Why should my own death be any different?
Why not just relax and not worry about it?
Worrying won't prevent death from occurring.
In a few minutes I won't be aware of anything at all.
So I'll just relax, close my eyes,
and leave this earth while listening to that one happy, busy little bee,
buzzing around in the sunshine outside my window screen.
By contrast,
my own grandmother, a devout (and miserable) Baptist,
and enormous egotist,
is in her 90s....and is "circling the drain" as my dad says...
but she has always been very defensive and utterly closed-minded about discussing the redundancy of religion,
preferring to more and more fervently and stubbornly assert her faith,
and getting increasingly agitated as time goes on;
(which, she doesn't seem to realize, indicates a LACK of faith, not a surplus)
she is obviously terrified of death
because she has always been the most important thing, to herself,
and the thought of herself coming to an end, is unthinkable.
But she can't fix this, about herself,
because to fix it, you first have to recognize the problem,
and how can she recognize that the problem is her ego,
when she is labouring under the misapprehension
that she actually thinks God is the most important thing in her life?
She's never been honest with herself:
She doesn't even realize that the only reason she ever "believed in God" at all,
was not for His glory...but for her OWN.
