A doctrine of alienation

[Drich]

Sorry it's taken me some time to get back to this thread; it's the only one I follow, even. 

Anyways the above has been highlighted by me. :

Why would having dinner with your sister and mother be considered a harmful influence, to be avoided?

Scripturally speaking for someone very young in the faith one must avoid anything that he may see as sin or may cause him to sin. This also includes permiting sin. He may feel if he was with you he would have to 'convert' you or bring you to the point of repentance. Which either he doesn't feel like he could do right now, or more likely doesn't want to completely alienate you.

Even if I am a non believer (amazingly my mother is still)--he's the one going out of his way to control our interactions. As a matter of fact, he's going out of his way to ensure I don't even make it to the party and feel blame free about it. It's his way or the highway. My dad does the same thing; he won't have a conversation with me about politics or the bible unless it's mouth to mouth, won't accept letters (I've been given back ten years worth of Unopened birthday cards and christmas cards in past, just take a moment to imagine that), won't accept an email conversation, won't accept a phone call conversation.

My dad and I went 8 years of complete silence, would have gone 12 if I had not gone more than 1/2 way to try and make things right. So I can imagine what that's like because I picked my (at the time drug addicted) wife over his authority/him. So why does your brother act this way? it sound more like a family thing than a scriptural thing. Scripturally speaking all of the NT (the praises and rebukes/ The good and Bad) were letters to one group of people or another. We are meant to communicate with each other, the denial of that communication anyway possible, Reserving it to one form or nothing at all is not something we are not ordered to do.

It has to be on his terms, when I am at my weakest (without the proof needed to refute his assertions), face to face with no referee to ensure a fair fight against his overbearing personality.

I'm the same way. I need my research and time to think about what is said. I don't like face to face stuff because I will speak from the cuff and that usally ends up in a fight, and most of the time nothing is accomplished. Not to say we don't fight here, its that more often than not said fights include topical content, and not just empty shouting.

Because that is what it becomes, with him. A fight. I grew up nodding like a good girl, crying when mom wouldn't/couldn't and they'd fight. Can you believe he held her hostage with that one verse about how she'll go to hell if she divorces him while he still breathes, whether he refuses to go to counseling or not?!

Then He will have much to answer for, because if he bothered to keep reading he would note the other 1/2 of the command given to Wives AND HUSBANDS. It's a two part message. Wives do ABC and HUSBANDS must XYZ. This is what the marriage covenant is based on, not a 'I can do no wrong, and you must do all that I say.' A one sided biblically based marriage is not a biblical marriage.

For twenty years she was verbally abused, berated, and humiliated. All because a book says so  (and yes, he'd pick that book up and hold it in his hand when he told her how she should act).

He should have kept reading: Eph 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives the same as Christ loved the church and gave his life for it. 26 He died to make the church holy. He used the telling of the Good News to make the church clean by washing it with water. 27 Christ died so that he could give the church to himself like a bride in all her beauty. He died so that the church could be holy and without fault, with no evil or sin or any other thing wrong in it.

28 And husbands should love their wives like that. They should love their wives as they love their own bodies. The man who loves his wife loves himself, 29 because no one ever hates his own body, but feeds and takes care of it. And that is what Christ does for the church 30 because we are parts of his body. 31 The Scriptures say, “That is why a man will leave his father and mother and join his wife, and the two people will become one.”[a] 32 That secret truth is very important—I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 But each one of you must love his wife as he loves himself. And a wife must respect her husband.

How can one die to self for another if they do not respect the one they are to serve?

They divorced when I was 14.  At some point (17, I believe it was), I just decided that despite his mental illness I was going to do what I could to be a good daughter to him. So I let him talk. I'd listen, and not respond to obvious prods as best I could. I'd hug him even when he'd get himself so worked up at me that I wouldn't agree with him that gay people are pedophiles or mosques should be bombed, etc. and I'd hope that having at least one person in his life would make the difference between life and a noose. Well, he's chosen the slow noose and I can't be there for him for that, and my brother seems to be on an accelerated rate of mental illness than my father was. He's also inherited the book and is bound by its' words.

Then a warning should be heeded found in Heb 4:
12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

The word spoken here is the same 'word' of John 1:1. That 'Word' is another name for Christ. This passage basically says that Christ will take everything we do and cut it down to deli thin slices and examine everything we do and more importantly why. This includes using the bible for personal gain, and promoting our own agendas and self centered doctrines. It is to him we all must give an account, this includes popes, elders, TV ministers and indivisual leaders of a given house hold as well as those in said house hold.

I don't want to fight. I don't want want to even talk about the bible, or their opinions on things we disagree about. For me they can believe what they want and I'll still try to enjoy their company. The feeling of being with them as people--not representatives of viewpoints-- is what I seek. Why must they run from such a simple thing as being themselves, and only themselves, with other people who love them? Why can't there just be peace? I feel like it's because they've built mental walls that cannot be brought down because then they'd remember that they used to have free wills, and thoughts of their own. They're afraid of the thought police but at the same time it's frightening to be alone. I see it time and time again in "believers" everywhere, of all denominations and religions. They have their comfort zone; they feel they know who they are in that zone, and can identify the corners of the field and where they are within it and it's completely in their control.

But again, what if the Religion does not afford them the power and control they are using it for?

Is it then the fault of the religion, or the heart that manipulates it to ultimately gain the control they are seeking? Again your Father's verse was out of balance with the rest of the chapter, and Everything else Paul had to say about marriage. Those who following the teaching of Christ/The bible know they can not pick and choose from it. They must strive to reconcile all of it, not what they want to hear. Another example would be How you Father chooses to only engage in a 'barking contest' verses any other form of debate where one has to slow down and think/Verses letting emotion fuel his efforts, this is also not a religious/Christian mandate. Nor is your brother following suit if that is indeed what is happening. Christ and His followers had serious warnings for people who did such things.

This is no different than supposed 'christians' waging war to take the holy land.. Nothing in the bible commanded this, Nothing Jesus ever said that his followers must maintain control over Israel.. This was the selfish desires of men who used 'religion'/Not the bible for their own ends. The definition of a believer is one who acts in accordance to what has been written, not one who simply professes faith. "It is by their fruits that you will know them." Their fruits meaning their Spiritual fruit or the signs of the Holy Spirit living in them.. Meaning when God Himself lives in you, you exude/radiate the attributes of God. One can not help it. One can not also help following ALL of what scripture says, and not what appeals to just them.

 Without their religious persona, they'd feel naked. For some, they would be naked; totally incompetent to make decisions on their own.

I have no doubt that you are right. But at the same time from what you have said I can not attribute anything they have done in your post so far to God, or biblical Christianity either. Again, it is by our Fruits that we can identify each other, and all you've described so far are thorns and thissles.

Luckily I was able to take some of the good lessons from the bible and keep those, and priorly deciding to be good willed, I am still. They're more life lessons, than anything though. Do unto others as you'd have done to you, etc. Since I dropped Christianity altogether, I've tried things and failed at other things since then, but I'm still me.

Do you think your Father and I would see eye to eye on His defination of the word "Christianity?" I say His definition because unless you went to school and studied Christianity someplace else that will also be where your understanding of the word comes from as well. If no, then what you 'dropped' was what Jesus refered to is a house built on sand. It is Religious nonsense that collapsed because it had no foundation.(God does not support that belief) This is by design per what Christ said about the wise and foolish builders.

Let me ask.. If your experience was completely different. Like say if you mother want to goto marriage consouling your Father made the appointment and not only went but changed some things and made the marriage work? Or if he did not use the religion to get his own way. Or if you saw God's qualities just pouring our of Him no matter what he did, would you have the same view? Would you 'drop Christianity all together?' What if the 'religion' of Christianity was nothing like what you knew of it, or better yet the complete oppsite of what you knew? In essence what if you could truly see God in Christianity would you abandon it?

My opinions and decisions are my own.

My decisions are inservice to God.. But that is ALL I want. Therefore my opinions and decisions also belong to me. I spent the first 1/2 of my life doing things myway, and it got me no where. Then I signed on with God, and now I am a company man. Why? because my life is so much better than it was before. As a Result I not only believe in the produce I use and want it as well. no matter how it ends I know it will be better than the mess it would have been. My dad lives a life of his own doing, and it is only by the grace of God in those who lives around him that he has anything at all. I don't see me falling too far from that tree, if not for the grace of God.

I consider myself a better me. I've lost a lot of baggage. Like ghosts? All believers I know constantly remark about how their houses are haunted, and push as far as they can any physical anomalies they notice.

Yeah, I don't have ghosts either.. But there was this one time my sister and I (Pre Christianity) made a ouji board and we were trying to summon a spirit and the kitchen pantry door slamed open and all the bread flew out, while everything else remain undisturbed.. We figured it was demonic and not a ghost.. Or like you said it could have been just the wind... a bread targeting wind.. a bread targeting wind in a closed up house.

Instead of assuming there's something I can't see or touch or feel in the room with me, I don't fear anymore when the door blows the door shut. The wind, just blew, the door, shut

The thing is God's people don't have to worry about stuff like that. When were the apstoles chased out by ghosts or demons? It's when one doesn't have the authority of God behind them that one is subject to such things.

I have had to look at every issue and re-assess what I believe to be true or false and I do it as informed as possible. I'm a better person now because I'm no longer in conflict with what I was told I should believe vs what felt right in my heart. I considered myself a bad christian for not proselytizing, or being confrontational with those who obviously needed "saved". Or say, talking to an atheist (the first one I eventually married mind you). That wasn't me. I'm non confrontational in real life, and open minded to the core. These are only a few of many examples of the many contradictions I felt with the bible.

That's the thing. we don't all have to 'proselytize' as all haven't been given the same gifts. Paul tells us we are all members of the body of Christ and as such we each have our different functions. The whole body is not a hand, nor is it an ear. But, rather all of these different parts make up a body. So one member of the church can not look at himself and say everyone should worship as I do or they are not truly worshiping God. Now to those in whom God has given the ability to 'proselytize' they are expected to do so, and those who have been given the gift of loving and nurturing, should do that. We are only complete when we all come together and use our indivisual gifts to a single end. That is the picture of biblical Christianity, not turning everyone into a high pressure sales man.

Like for instance my calling is here doing this. however my wife seems to work better in the church's pantry providing food for those in need. (Something I am not a big fan of.) I can't say she needs to do what I do here, nor can she say I need to do what she does if I am to be a follower of Christ. We working in our own little areas along with the rest of the body of believers is what makes the biblical church work.

"It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." (Luke 16:17 NAB)

How can you possibly reconcile the above verse, and what the OT says to do with regards to people like me, or LGBT, or a starving man who simply wants to eat some meat that was being wasted on an altar?

Because "The Law" extends beyond a list of do's and dont's. an entire 1/3 of the Law focuses on atonement for sin. (how to get right with God when we break the list of do's and don'ts.) This is the critical thing most people forget. Even though Christ said The WHOLE LAW is what he came here not to abolish but to complete it. The whole law most definatly includes what is written in it about attonement.

To abolish the law means to get rid of it completely, the does and don't and the atonement.

To complete the law means to cast a blanket atonement for all sin for all time. Just like how Adam's one sin cascaded down causing 'death' for everyone, Christ's death (and our acceptance of this atonement) Brings us back to where Adam was post fall, or so says Paul in Romans 5. (the whole Chapter) Being found righteous before God not because of what we have done, but because of what Christ has done for us. No one in heaven deserves it. matter of fact the oppsite is true. we are only there because Christ traded us His spot in glory for ours in death.

So then what becomes of the list of do's and don'ts? According to Romans Chapters 2, and 3. The list of do's and don'ts become a way for us to identify sin in our lives. it for the honest man shows us that in no way can we ever be who the law demands we be inorder to warrant the righteousness needed to stand before God as Christ does. So then it pushes us to find 'another way' to obtain this righteousness. This "other way" Paul talks about in Romans is through attonement.

So how can I be a Christian and not stone you? Romans chapter one and two tells us. Chapter one basically asks the question and points out unbelief and Gay relationships (like you did along with a whole list of other sins) and asks in chapter two how it is we feel we can judge those people when we too are covered in sin? Paul then uses the Law to identify sin in the Beleiver's life. Thus disqualifying us to "do what the OT says do." Subjecting us to "Being judged as we have judged others."
Which is what Christ warned us about when we were told to take the plank out of our own eye before we concern ourselves with the spec in the eye of another.

Notice I did not cherry pick scraps of verses from 10 different places. I am paraphrasing whole chapters in sequencial order (well out of order to answer your questions as you ask them) because these topics are all tied together in biblical Christianity. It sounds like your father's version of Christianity did not include the book of romans.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch...ersion=ERV

The first time I read Romans I was shocked to find out that most 'christians' haven't reconciled romans in their beliefs. Most Christians are modified Jews in practice.

Furthermore, how can you say that those young ones are wrong? Jesus made it pretty clear. What my brother believes is valid per the word of the bible--Actually per the word of god himself, Jesus Christ. What you believe about the bible being one thing to one person and another to another is true--but by what measure do you say your interpretation is the correct one? 

I am assuming your talking about what Jesus said about bringing division. To which I said something to the effect "That we don't Have to hate our family.." I did not say that some of us wouldn't nor did I say that our families wouldn't hate us.

I was simply pointing out that Jesus in General does not tell us/command us to hate our families, but rather warns us that for some the act of Loving God first will bring division, and if push comes to shove we are indeed to pick God over our lost loved ones. In that culture it was customary to follow the lead of the patriarch over all else, and Christianity is about following God first. For the Proud Father this is a cold slap in the face.. That said, from the 'fruit' you have described that your father and brother has produced, it does not sound like what they are involved in is anything near biblical Christianity/What Jesus was speaking about.

If the bible was their corner stone, then they would have to yield to what Paul said in the book of Romans just as I had to with my own father and all the evil he has rained down on our family over the years.

You can't pick one thing Jesus says to be truth and another to be sorta truth. Either it is or it isn't, because we aren't talking about a man here--we're talking about what you and others consider to be the literal words of god written down on paper in a book meant for believers to follow to the T with the threat of eternal damnation at stake.

Your absolutely correct, but at the same time I do not have to accept your Father's interpretation of those words. I can freely look at them and observe what it is Jesus specifically said and what he did not say. In this case Jesus was not issuing a command, but a conditional warning. We know this was a warning because of two things. one the context in which the passage is found, and if it were a blanket command it would directly conflict with other commands given in the NT to love and care for our families first, before we do anything for the church. Despite what some believe we do not have conflicting commands. Granted some OT Jewish command conflict with NT Christianity, but that's not what I am saying. Jesus has not issued any commands that conflict with anyother NT commands. That makes what He said a warning/observation not a blanket command to abandon everyone if they don't see things our way.

 

I'll take you up on the first offer.

The bolded, I have trouble seeing how you will be able to pull off but I'm open to using any way possible to be able to see my brother. The last time I saw him he was very sick (strung out) and I sobbed uncontrollably afterwards, but I wouldn't take back having dropped in on his cave just to give him a hug, for the world. I live for hugs. 


Hope you're well, 
Luckie

I'm doing good, fell out of the shower and hurt my back last sunday, but other than that I'll be ok till 12-18-15 (if I remember correctly) this is the day I go in for more tests. Then once a year forever after that, till something shows up iguess.

If your brother has objections write them down (book chapter and verse please) or just ask him how does he reconcile his verse fragements with a contextual reading of the book of Romans.

If he dismisses the book or Paul, then that is the goal you are looking for. Because at this point he has admitted to not following Biblical Christianity. If this is the case then ask what seperates him from a David Koresh of wacco Texas? or a Joseph Smith, or even a Mohammad?

Once one leaves contextual Scripture then he leaves Christianity as the bible/God intended, once you leave that then by your fruits, you can not be counted among the body of believers..