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Current time: July 20, 2025, 9:31 am

Poll: What is your stance?
This poll is closed.
I do not believe that god(s) exist.
64.15%
34 64.15%
I believe that god(s) do not exist.
24.53%
13 24.53%
I believe that god(s) exist.
11.32%
6 11.32%
Total 53 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

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Belief
#53
RE: Belief
(November 30, 2010 at 5:16 am)Arcanus Wrote: If you would like to try, I am willing to show you why that fails to rescue such arguments. At this point I am unable to envision what sort of argument you are thinking of.
? I think the arguments are well trodden and aired, we may take different and competing views of which carry more force. My point is that the so called, defeaters such as the free will defence, do not give a knock out blow to arguments for atheism such as evil and reasonable unbelief (divine hiddenness).

(November 30, 2010 at 5:16 am)Arcanus Wrote: Saying that it is wrong and a problem remains for the theist does not help me see it. Furthermore, there is no such thing as "redefining" free-will; such a statement presupposes a universal and objective definition of free-will from which others deviate and shoulders an enormous burden of proof. I do not redefine free-will; I have a definition that competes with others.
Having said that, I struggle to think of any definition of free-will under which my statement fails. Whether libertarianism, determinism, or compatibilism, my statement holds. Can you show me otherwise? In pursuit of accuracy, my statement again was, "Informing a person of what his choices are and the consequences thereof does not negate his ability to freely choose according to his desires."
I find this a very theoretical rejoinder. Sure if a god was to say "if you take one more step you'll fall over a cliff" does not in any sense undermine free will as it is just "Informing a person of what his choices are and the consequences thereof does not negate his ability to freely choose according to his desires."
Lets stop talking for a second about the philosophical god and talk about the Christian god, who clearly threatens people if they do not do as they are told. What is free about this choice if you a) beleive it and b) you beleive that god can do anything they want to you or others? It is coersion and duress at best and bullying at risk of eternal torture at worst. It is not free will by any common definition I am aware of. Worship is by definition and abondment of your autonomy and ultimately free will.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Belief - by Paul the Human - November 1, 2010 at 11:42 am
RE: Belief - by Shinylight - November 1, 2010 at 12:35 pm
RE: Belief - by Tiberius - November 1, 2010 at 1:38 pm
RE: Belief - by Violet - November 2, 2010 at 2:50 am
RE: Belief - by ib.me.ub - November 2, 2010 at 7:29 am
RE: Belief - by Justtristo - November 2, 2010 at 7:49 am
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 2, 2010 at 9:21 pm
RE: Belief - by orogenicman - November 3, 2010 at 7:17 am
RE: Belief - by Existentialist - November 3, 2010 at 3:49 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 3, 2010 at 5:02 pm
RE: Belief - by solja247 - November 3, 2010 at 6:59 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 4, 2010 at 2:12 am
RE: Belief - by Existentialist - November 4, 2010 at 3:57 am
RE: Belief - by tackattack - November 5, 2010 at 3:50 am
RE: Belief - by Ryft - November 23, 2010 at 12:27 am
RE: Belief - by Lethe - November 23, 2010 at 3:20 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 23, 2010 at 4:17 pm
RE: Belief - by Lethe - November 23, 2010 at 5:57 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 23, 2010 at 6:20 pm
RE: Belief - by Captain Scarlet - November 24, 2010 at 4:06 am
RE: Belief - by Strongbad - December 1, 2010 at 8:00 am
RE: Belief - by Anomalocaris - November 23, 2010 at 1:52 am
RE: Belief - by downbeatplumb - November 23, 2010 at 2:30 pm
RE: Belief - by Anomalocaris - November 23, 2010 at 3:20 pm
RE: Belief - by Captain Scarlet - November 23, 2010 at 3:57 pm
RE: Belief - by Paul the Human - November 23, 2010 at 6:28 pm
RE: Belief - by padraic - November 23, 2010 at 8:36 pm
RE: Belief - by Paul the Human - November 23, 2010 at 9:56 pm
RE: Belief - by ib.me.ub - November 23, 2010 at 10:06 pm
RE: Belief - by Paul the Human - November 23, 2010 at 10:47 pm
RE: Belief - by ib.me.ub - November 23, 2010 at 10:57 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 25, 2010 at 3:58 pm
RE: Belief - by Captain Scarlet - November 25, 2010 at 5:31 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 25, 2010 at 6:16 pm
RE: Belief - by Captain Scarlet - November 26, 2010 at 6:14 am
RE: Belief - by The Omnissiunt One - November 25, 2010 at 6:39 pm
RE: Belief - by Ryft - November 28, 2010 at 9:47 pm
RE: Belief - by downbeatplumb - November 29, 2010 at 1:52 pm
RE: Belief - by Lethe - November 29, 2010 at 9:17 am
RE: Belief - by Captain Scarlet - November 29, 2010 at 10:47 am
RE: Belief - by Anomalocaris - November 29, 2010 at 11:43 am
RE: Belief - by Minimalist - November 29, 2010 at 11:59 am
RE: Belief - by LastPoet - November 29, 2010 at 3:21 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 29, 2010 at 4:02 pm
RE: Belief - by Anomalocaris - November 29, 2010 at 8:47 pm
RE: Belief - by Welsh cake - November 29, 2010 at 5:48 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 29, 2010 at 6:19 pm
RE: Belief - by Ryft - November 30, 2010 at 5:16 am
RE: Belief - by Captain Scarlet - December 4, 2010 at 5:50 am
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 30, 2010 at 4:35 pm
RE: Belief - by Ryft - November 30, 2010 at 5:04 pm
RE: Belief - by theVOID - November 30, 2010 at 5:06 pm
RE: Belief - by Welsh cake - November 30, 2010 at 5:14 pm
RE: Belief - by tackattack - December 4, 2010 at 2:58 pm
RE: Belief - by Captain Scarlet - December 5, 2010 at 1:24 pm
RE: Belief - by Ryft - December 5, 2010 at 10:30 am
RE: Belief - by Strongbad - December 5, 2010 at 4:25 pm
RE: Belief - by Welsh cake - December 5, 2010 at 11:32 am
RE: Belief - by Paul the Human - December 5, 2010 at 11:35 am
RE: Belief - by Welsh cake - December 5, 2010 at 11:46 am
RE: Belief - by Lethe - December 5, 2010 at 12:57 pm
RE: Belief - by lilyannerose - December 5, 2010 at 1:19 pm
RE: Belief - by Lethe - December 5, 2010 at 4:33 pm
RE: Belief - by lilyannerose - December 5, 2010 at 5:26 pm
RE: Belief - by Ryft - December 5, 2010 at 10:23 pm

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