(November 30, 2010 at 5:16 am)Arcanus Wrote: If you would like to try, I am willing to show you why that fails to rescue such arguments. At this point I am unable to envision what sort of argument you are thinking of.? I think the arguments are well trodden and aired, we may take different and competing views of which carry more force. My point is that the so called, defeaters such as the free will defence, do not give a knock out blow to arguments for atheism such as evil and reasonable unbelief (divine hiddenness).
(November 30, 2010 at 5:16 am)Arcanus Wrote: Saying that it is wrong and a problem remains for the theist does not help me see it. Furthermore, there is no such thing as "redefining" free-will; such a statement presupposes a universal and objective definition of free-will from which others deviate and shoulders an enormous burden of proof. I do not redefine free-will; I have a definition that competes with others.I find this a very theoretical rejoinder. Sure if a god was to say "if you take one more step you'll fall over a cliff" does not in any sense undermine free will as it is just "Informing a person of what his choices are and the consequences thereof does not negate his ability to freely choose according to his desires."
Having said that, I struggle to think of any definition of free-will under which my statement fails. Whether libertarianism, determinism, or compatibilism, my statement holds. Can you show me otherwise? In pursuit of accuracy, my statement again was, "Informing a person of what his choices are and the consequences thereof does not negate his ability to freely choose according to his desires."
Lets stop talking for a second about the philosophical god and talk about the Christian god, who clearly threatens people if they do not do as they are told. What is free about this choice if you a) beleive it and b) you beleive that god can do anything they want to you or others? It is coersion and duress at best and bullying at risk of eternal torture at worst. It is not free will by any common definition I am aware of. Worship is by definition and abondment of your autonomy and ultimately free will.
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.