Why the "There are so many interpretations of the Bible" claim is confused

[Homeless Nutter]

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TheRocketSurgeon

Wrong, there is a reason for eternal punishment. The first and simplest answer I would give is balance in justice, meaning that because there is an eternal reward there has to be an eternal punishment.
Second because God is eternal and a persons unforgiven sin is against Him, there has to be an eternal punishment, why, because the sin goes on and on forever it's never forgiven because a person even in hell will not seek it.
You speak of the way you believe salvation is earned and then you speak of Jesus teachings, they are two totally different things. You can't elevate your soul to worthiness, it's impossible in the teachings of Jesus, only Jesus Christ can elevate you into salvation and it comes by grace, grace unmerited love.
Third it's not your universe and/or creation it's God's and He has the authority through who He is to set the rules so to speak. If you are to deny Christ till your death I can understand why you would want to be left in the grave, however that's not your call nor choice, at death you give up all choice.

Yeah... I get what you think. I really did used to think like you. And then I woke up. I have not failed to grasp the concept of what you call  a "free gift", except it is not free. It's ludicrous to me that you cannot understand that if there is a threat accompanying a "free gift", then it's not free. You're just playing word-games by calling it "justice" and "a gift".

I am hoping that I've not done all this work in vain, I went through every verse you posted and answered each one, this all took more time than I thought it would and I've been busy getting my home and property ready for winter. Please don't do like all the others when I post this much in answer to your post, they will ignore all the work I put into it to give them an answer, childish is all I know to say of them. Sorry this took so long, but here it is.

 
There are no word games, what I'm saying is from scripture and you know this if you've studied scripture as you say you have. There's no threat either and you know this also if you are the scholar of the scriptures you say you are. As we have discussed, we are born with a sin nature meaning we are going to sin and man himself created this situation not God. This being so means we are bound for an eternal punishment, unless we find a way out of it. God provided a gift, His Son, to save us from this eternal punishment, this is justice and a gift from God. Please do not come back with a robber threatening someone with their lives, it's old and tiring. The person being threatened in that analogy wasn't in that situation from birth and might not have ever been, it took a decision from someone else to put them in a threatened situation.

You know what happens at death? God is no longer hidden, according to your story. There's finally real proof. So what this concept is really saying is, "We have the One True Religion™, and all the others are false! Accept the OTR and reject the others, OR ELSE! If you don't accept our faith without proof--after all, we have none to offer you--then it will be too late when you finally get proof!"  Again, you can justify that with word-games all day, but in the end it's the biggest trolly of horse hockey pucks in the history of mankind. And it's blatantly obvious to anyone who pays attention and looks with honesty. You see it plain as day when you look at Imams in Saudi Arabia, convincing their masses to be Muslim OR ELSE... but you won't look with true honesty at your own equivalence.

Of coarse I know what happens at death, why ask such a silly question. I didn't say God wasn't hidden anymore, so it's not my story, it's what you want others to believe I said, when I did not. God's not hidden from anyone who wants to accept Christ as their Savior, all one needs to do is sincerely seek Him and they will find Him, come to know Him and trust Him. For those who claim God has hidden himself they are trying only to fool themselves so they want have to accept He's real. I have looked at my beliefs about God sincerely and honestly and because I have God has revealed himself to me in ways that gives me personally proof of His existence, not doubts at all. So yes I can reject all others because I know the One True God and He says there are no other gods.

Yes, I agree we are born into a sin nature, however one doesn't have to be a slave to it, you can choose not to commit as I said, murder, I haven't and most people haven't. Many of the worst sins (as man sees them) most people never commit. But as you said we have a sin nature and we will all fall to it at some time and there is a punishment for it as long as it remains unforgiven and that does not have to be, Christ gave us a ticket on the train to freedom from our sin, all we have to do is accept who He is what He did for us. I love to eat and will over eat and have till I've gained to much weight, I've chosen to now eat less going against what I want to do so I can lose weight to become healthier. Sin's no different, we have the nature but we do not have to choose to act upon it, but we do and the reason is in the third chapter of Genesis if you care to search for it. By the way there's no red herring.

Awwwwww.... that's adorable!  You think there was a real garden, with a magical tree that had a real fruit which, when eaten, one's "eyes were opened", after a talking serpent (coulditbe coulditbe coulditbe....Saaaaa-tan?) convinced a frail-minded woman to do it, and she convinced her vag-whipped or mentally vacuous (perhaps because he hadn't yet "opened his eyes" by eating Knowledge Fruit?) husband to do the same?

Your condescending statement is not appreciated. Because I believe differently than you doesn't mean either of us is superior to the other. Yes I do believe in the Creation story and the story of the fall, if you believe this makes me something less than you then your mind is smaller than you believe.

You're trying to have the best of both worlds, rhetorically, by claiming we are born with sin-stain already on us from Adam/Eve, requiring salvation... but then claiming, no, it's a constant act we must avoid doing at all times.

I didn't say we are born with sin stain, that's you twisting what I actually said, (sin nature) there's a big difference. Again if you were the scholar of the Bible you claim to be you would know it says we are punished only for our own sin, not others. I did say we are to try and abstain from sin, I also said it was impossible for us because our nature is to sin. Christ was given as a sacrifice to redeem us from our sin, and He is our gift if we decide to accept Him. This is the only way to salvation, you can't earn it as you have suggested in your previous post.

No one has ever given me a satisfactory answer for why  we must "just accept the gift" of blood-sacrifice on our behalf. The closest I've seen is C.S. Lewis' fictional concept of "The Deep Magic", in the death of Aslan.

That was a nice story, very enjoyable and did suggest salvation through a sacrifice, how ever C.S. Lewis said he did not write the story as a reflection upon the Christ story.

You keep saying "all I have to do is accept", except that's a bald-faced lie, isn't it? There's a host of other "accessories" that accompany this "free gift" of salvation, mainly to do with obeying the rules written down by priests in the name of God, called sins by believers and bullshit by everyone else.

Salvation can not be earned, you claiming to know the scriptures should know this. Paul teaches this throughout his writings and Jesus himself said that no one can come to the Father except by me. Neither claimed that one must earn salvation, if we could then Christ's death on the cross would not have been necessary. Once someone accepts Christ as their savior then they have a desire to live a life according to His teachings and many of those teachings came from the OT.

Sure that would be a monster, but God as you are insinuating doesn't do that, God has given us a free ticket so to speak to not make the payment, His Son and our Savior has done that if we only accept who He is and what He did. So no one has an excuse for needing to be good enough (make the payment), because Christ himself will do it for us if we choose Him. Your above analogy is the OT kind, there is now no work for salvation.

Yeah, you should stop using the word free. Seriously, man. You can say it thirty more times, and it will still be a lie.

Never will I stop using the word free when I speak of salvation. It's only considered a lie by those who run from God, it makes them feel like God doesn't exist, however no matter how you want to look at it you can't wish the living God away.

FREE means that it has no strings or conditions attached. FREE means I can take or leave it. FREE means that it is given without precondition or repercussion.

That's right and that's what scriptures teach.

EXTORTION is when you tell me I have a debt I otherwise don't know about, that a really powerful guy says I owe him, because he says so, and if I don't follow a set of preconditions necessary, that powerful guy is going to torture me for not accepting the preconditions for "payment of the debt I owe him". That's a dogdamned Mafia shakedown!

I don't have to tell you there's a debt to be paid, you know there is, it's the guilt that's being suppressed in your heart that creeps out on occasion to haunt you. You make the debt, why do you think you don't believe you need to repay it. You try that with a bank and you end up in trouble, right, same with God.

Even if I grant your premise that it was somehow magically necessary for an innocent god-man to be murdered in my place for something a distant ancestor of mine did, permanently corrupting the human species, it is only a free gift if it works regardless of whether I submit to the authority of the deity who otherwise will murder me. Christ's blood could have paid for all, period. Instead, we get a bizarre Mafia con-game.

You are grasping at straws now or you're showing ignorance of the Bible. We do not have to pay a price for Adam and Eve's sin, the Bible is explicit about this, that's straw one broken. There was no magical necessity, it was a purposeful necessity, either that or hell for the sins we commit.
God murdering you, what kind of thinking is that, IMO it's absolutely ridiculous. Christ's blood has paid for all, if you do not accept the payment then you will not receive the gift. How is it someone as smart as you can't see the truth God presents through the Bible.

In my example and the way I've always seen God and know Him, He is, in truth both because of who He is. God didn't create the rules because God wasn't created, the law is set from who God is. As for some of the OT Jewish laws they were set for Israel as they were living at that time and other nations were living, in other words God works through humanity, some of those laws were set just for the nation of Israel because God was going to bring the Messiah to us through them.

Well that was very nice of the Israelites to realize that they were The Chosen People, through whom their Messiah would come to free Israel, and thereby free all mankind.

They didn't believe Christ was for the world as you have so crudely said, they believed wrongly that Christ was their personal possession, the whole of the Bible teaches that Christ came to save the world.

While it's refreshing to see you explain God's limitations regarding the laws of the universe (sin is more powerful than God? He just can't help what the rules of sin are? Wow.), it should be child's play for you to extrapolate from that why I find this being you worship more than a little bit ludicrous, and obviously a human creation that falls far short of any worthiness for praise/worship/submission.

I didn't say sin was more powerful than God, He will destroy sin forever once it runs it's coarse. Sin is chaos and has no rules, sin goes against who God is, talk about lies, you've thrown out several so far, an intelligent person shouldn't have to resort to such tactics. What child's play tells me, you have found or developed a hate for God to benefit your desires, you have fallen short of His will for your life and put your own self in jeopardy of eternal punishment.

I choose to worship God, the one you call a monster and you know I do, so yes you must be calling me irrational and dishonorable.

If you truly recognize that the things God commanded in the Old Testament (and I agree that Jesus accepted the OT as valid law, still), like genocide and slavery, and yet continue to think that it is not just humans using a God-concept to justify their own prejudices and greed by giving it divine cover, but actually are  the properties of your deity, then yes, I suppose I am calling you irrational and dishonorable. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and suggest that you simply had not truly considered the implications of a being that behaves the way the petty, petulant, vengeful, murderous psychopath in the OT does.

It's your right to have opinions about me, that doesn't mean you're correct though. I have told you before I've considered what I believe through the study of the Bible, very involved study. I find God none of what you claim, actually I find Him loving, truthful, just, responsible, caring and always ready to help even before I know I need help.

Because I have chosen to worship Him now I'm a sociopath and psychopath, this has no more reason than I stated before. I have studied the Bible sincerely and deeply often one passage at a time, I have asked Him to explain things that seemed wrong to me, that is until He revealed why and for what purpose. 
You want to see Him in the light you portray Him because you want to live the self (hint for Genesis chapter three) instead of living for Him and like I've said it's your choice, IMO and because I know who God really is you're making a mistake, but it is your choice not mine, I've made mine for myself.
Let me say this man's decency and un-innate morality has changed over the last fifty years alone that it doen't resemble what man believed fifty years ago and this will continue until man becomes depraved as a society.

Not what it says. Read again. Humans have innate morality, except for psychopaths and sociopaths.

You're right, sorry I miss read what you said.

As for "fifty years ago", mankind's morality has improved remarkaby, in that period of time. We've granted rights to racial minorities, women, prisoners, and other groups that were simply ignored or openly trampled, before. The fact that you see these advances as "depraved" is a big part of the reason I consider myself more moral than the system you promote, than the God you worship.

I didn't say we haven't done good things and you know I wasn't advocating such. As for prisoners well we have gone overboard and need to back off on somethings, but that's a discussion for another thread. The depravity I see is such as child porn and slavery, there are more children and women in slavery today than any time in the past. Homosexual marriage, people living together instead of marrying and making a commitment to each other, divorce at an all time high, kids killing each other and teachers, a country wealthy enough to feed all it's own people and many across the world yet greed keeps it from happening, I could write much more but I believe you see what I'm saying.

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You have no farther to look than this forum, Dawkins is setup on a pedestal here so high if someone was to fall off that pedestal it would kill them. seriously go look at what has been said here about him if you truly want the answer to your question, if not the ignore, that's the usual way most atheist act around here. I agree what they do with him is wwweeeiiirrrddd! I'm the one who understand how atheism works, it's those here who claim to be atheist that parrot Dawkins and other atheist and never bring their own ideas nor feelings to the table. I've said this so many times over the last five years I've given up on anyone actually realizing what their doing.[/]

You don't look very well, or very clearly, then. I don't think I've ever seen Dawkins mentioned in anything like a worshipful or inerrantist context. Most of us think he has some great ideas, some terrible ideas, and a lot of ideas that are worth thinking about. But in the idea, the thinking process and decision to accept or reject the ideas of others, even "The Holy Prophet Dawkins, Peace Be Upon Him", are our own. (That prophet reference was sarcasm, in case it's not obvious in print-form.)

I mean, seriously, I've been an open atheist for 17 years, and an active science-studying (including reading Dawkins' The Selfish Gene  very early-on) agnostic for 22 years. Are you really  trying to sit there and tell me that you know better than I do how people in this community view Dawkins?

To be honest, I found much of what The God Delusion  argued to be poor counter-apologetics, and thought that Dawkins should stick to science,

I been here for over five years and seen all the things said about Dawkins and he has been raised on a very high pedestal, so much so it seems many revere him as a god, don't tell me I haven't seen this when I know I have, why are you defending those who are wrong, it doesn't look good. I do not care what you've read, I've seen Dawkins making his grand stands when he is at different schools, he's as arrogant as they come.

You have never personally responded to me in detail why you believe God to be a monster.

God commands the murder of nonbelievers (Deuteronomy 13:7-19, Deuteronomy 17:2-5, Exodus 22:19),

Deut. 13:7-19 These verses were for Israelis to punish Israelis, God wanted to keep corruption from false gods out of the people from which He would bring His Son. You left out verse 6 and part of verse 7 that states that this is meant only for disobedient, covenant breaking Israelis, they made a covenant with God not to worship false gods.

Deut. 17:2-5 These verses are also for Israelis against covenant breaking Israelis, again this pertains to the covenant they made with God not to worship false gods. You also left out the verses following verse 7 that says, you are to have two or three witnesses against the covenant breaker, one will not do. The witnesses are to cast the first stone the the rest of the village is to cast stones, this you left out was to prevent an injustice being committed against an innocent person.

Exodus 22:19 God wanted to protect His people who were chosen to bring His Son into the world from perversions and sexual immoralities, this type of perversion would be dangerous on many levels, one would be to protect the people from sexual diseases. 

adulterers (Leviticus 20:10), slutty daughters (Leviticus 21:9 and Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Lev. 20:10-16 I've added verses here, these verses show how much God hates sexual impurity and wants to save His chosen people from something that could destroy them, also this is a way of transmitting sexual diseases, they had no cure for them then, sexual purity was the only sure preventative.

Deut. 22:20-21 Again God hates sexual immorality and if the daughter disgraces her father by an act of sexual immorality she is put to death. This is to protect the family name and more so the name of Israel before the nations around them. You also left out the verses preceding verse 20, they are about the man accusing a fathers daughter of not being a virgin because the man hates her or whatever the accusation may be. If the daughter was a virgin then the man must pay the father and remain the daughters husband for the rest of their lives. God wants His people to live honest and just lives to honor Him before the other nations.

, heretics (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Deuteronomy 18:20-22, Zechariah 13:3), blasphemers (Leviticus 24:10-16), apostates (Ezekiel 9:1-7), and everyone in the National Football League (Exodus 31:12-15).

Deut. 13:15 You've already brought this up, it was the very first one but I want to add something I left out in my earlier answer. God said the people had to be certain that men of a town lead the town astray to worship false gods. He also said to destroy the people and the town and everything in it, they were not allowed to keep anything from that town, it was to all be burnt. God wanted to keep His people pure to keep out the corruption of false gods because this was the people chosen to bring His Son into the world.

Deut. 18:20-22 Again you're leaving out verses relative to the ones you posted. This is a prophecy in itself about the Son of God and that the people shall know this prophet by his truths, truths from the Father. Then God says that the false prophet or prophet from a false god is lying to them and they should not be afraid of him because what he says can bring no fear to them. God also says that prophet shall die, He gives no command for him to be killed nor does He say how the false prophet will die.

Zech. 13:3 Verse 1 is about the second coming of the Messiah, this is prophecy, God the Father is saying He will cleans the earth and there will be no use for prophets again. God says if any man prophecies during this time he is a liar and his father and mother will tell him he will not live for what he has done and will pierce him through. God is cleaning up the world and will not allow such things to go on to corrupt others.

Lev. 24:10-16 Once again this is law for Israelis against Israelis, they are a chosen people (actually a nation made by God) for the purpose of bring into the world God's Son. God asked for respect from this people and they made a covenant with God not to do these things you complain about, things that apply to only the Israelis, why because they know Him personally.

Ezekiel 9:1-7 This is a prophecy, a vision given Ezekiel by God, this is what God shows Ezekiel will happen when the Persian Empire puts Jerusalem under siege. God shows Ezekiel that the unrighteous will die and God will save the ones He sees as righteous for a remnant to preserve Israel. To put it simply, God was showing Ezekiel what was going to happen to Israel by the Persians and that He would save a righteous remnant of Israelis to preserve the nation. If you had wanted to know what was actually happening in that chapter, you would have read the chapter after chapter 9 and discovered God told Ezekiel what would happen to other nations when the Persians came rolling through.

Exodus 31:12-15  Keeping the Sabbath in these verses was given specifically to the Israelis, nothing to do with the NFL, or any other sport played on any day. Since Christ we have worshiped on Sundays they were worshiping on the last day of the week, so tell me which is the seventh day, by the calendar Saturday is, we worship a God who is eternal and keeps no real calendar. To answer your concern, God wanted His people to be holy as He is holy and keep His commandments to show the world who He is and to have a good nation to bring His Son into the world, this is a day intended for God and His people to have fellowship in a more personal way.

He specifically endorses inheritable, permanent-property racial-based slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46) and extreme violence to support slavery (Exodus 21:20-21), as well as sexual slavery of rape victims once they become damaged goods (Deuteronomy 22:28-29).

Lev. 25:44-46 Since you seem to pick verses out of the middle of several verses meant for an understanding of what God wants for His people, I'm having to show how what you're doing here is wrong. The beginning of this teaching starts at Lev. 25:35 and this teaching is about how Israelis are to treat each other. They are not to take advantage of those Israelis who are down in life, they are to help each other without taking advantage of them in any way. This is also how the teaching ends in Lev. 25:46. The verses you have pulled from the teaching is to show how the Israelis are to treat each other in contrast to how the world treats other people and even their own people. God gave them permission to have slaves from other nations for many reasons, but I believe the one that's foremost here, is that before the nation of Israel was ever established the world was using slaves everywhere. God was working through the history of man. Nevertheless the teaching here is how Israelis are to help each other.

Exodus 21:20-21 In these verses God calls for the slave owner to be punished if the slave dies, if the slave lives the slave owner is not to be punished. This continues in Exodus 21:26 if that same slave suffers the loss of an eye or tooth the slave is to be freed, seems to me God didn't want slaves mistreated. In Exodus 21:21 the word translated survives literally means stands, which to mean would actually indicate the slave lives. I know you will take it as you desire but the possibility is there that the slave lives.

Deut. 22:28-29 Surely you know your ancient history well enough to know that a young woman was only worth to the family what would be given for her by the groom's family. If she is raped then she will become a burden to the family, she becomes someone to take care of without any means of contributing to the finances of the family. This is why this law is given among others, the family is financially satisfied and the woman gets her husband that has to take care of her for the rest of his life, this was set up as a deterrent to rape, a man might think twice about raping a women he doesn't desire to spend the rest of his life with. Unfortunately men held women in low regard then and didn't consider what they might think of the man who raped her, though she knew that he was the only one she could marry, because no other man would want her, not in that day.

 
During their genocidal rampage against their fellow Semites in the region, God approves of or even commands the murder of males, and sexual slavery of females, in entire cities and nations across the region (Numbers 31:7-18, Deuteronomy 20:10-14, Judges 5:28-31, Zechariah 14:1-2, et cetera) ...

In Numbers 31, God was taking vengeance on the Midians and He used the Israelis to do so, God is cleaning out the land for His people, this isn't murder it's war, the same kind of war many nations waged against Israel (which you do not complain about, strange). The women who were keep were children, still virgins and nothing was said in those verses that the men could rape them, there were penalties for that behavior.
In Deut. 20:10 The Israelis were to ask for a peaceful resolution first, if the peoples agree then the people of that city became forced labor, this was a standard of wars during those days. Again there is no mention of the women being used for rape or sexual slavery (if you actually see a difference in the two).
Judges 5:28-31 This is part of a song sang to the LORD, the verses you posted said nothing about sexual slavery nor rape, sure you know the scriptures as you profess.
Zech. 14:1-2 This is a continuation of the prophecy in chapter 13, this is yet to come. The ravished women in this verse are those that the nations warring against Jerusalem will ravage, this isn't anything God is commanding, it is what He sees happening in the future it is those who are against God will do. You have given a poor account of yourself as one who claims to b the best Bible scholar on this forum. What did you really do Google this stuff up, were you just being lazy. I would expect someone who knew the scriptures as well as you've claimed would have taken in all the relevant verses before and after the verses you posted, were you even thinking when you posted this stuff.

It's quite obvious by observation alone White Supremacist ideologies are not desirable nor will they make someone happy, unless they have a real hate for others. So their claims hold no water for rational people.
God on the other hand promises to deliver us from any hatred we might harbor in our hearts for anyone person. Jesus said, if one has a problem with another, to go to them and clear up things before coming to the alter to honor Him. You can't honor Jesus with hate in your heart and He wants us to clear it up with His help so that He is honored even before we come to the alter. Why you say should I (you) honor Jesus, because He gave His all to give you freedom from the sin that condemns you to an eternal hell.

That's hilarious. You just wrote all White Supremacists off as irrational because you don't agree with their ideologies. And yet, I know from personal experience in dealing with them for almost a decade, they all have a long and detailed list of their reasons for believing as they do, no less consistent and no less complex than your own philosophies. Indeed, one of their favorite expressions is that they don't hate, they just think the races should be separate and that they are fighting for the purity of the white race. They consider themselves just as rational as you do. Of course, I think both groups are just as nuts as you think the other one is.

I wrote off their ideologies, not the people and you know that's what I said, now how's playing word games. I haven't philosophies that condemn people for their race or thoughts. I have very specific beliefs about how and why people treat those they do not like ie. hate. Are you telling us you're a White Supremacist, if you're not why are you spending so much time with them, is the bold by me above a way of trying to hide the fact.

It's also funny because you talk about being "freed from hate" (as the Supremacists do), and yet all I hear from either group is a torrent of hatred. When I became an atheist, one of the most freeing elements was that I discovered I had no reason to hate and judge any person of a good-hearted nature... no more hating "sinners" or wondering who did and didn't qualify for various classifications, none of that. You people talk about love, but I accept people as they are, as long as they are not seeking to harm their fellow human beings (against the will of the others), and that is real love for your fellow man.

Now I see your problem when you say you were a Christian, you hated others and you had to because you said you were freed from it by your atheism. Christians are not to hate anyone, we can hate the sin but not the person, we are not to hate those of different religions, different beliefs or non-beliefs. We are not to judge others until we examine ourselves and then only by what the scriptures say and our judgement is never to be condemning. Yes Christians make mistakes and do things we shouldn't just like others do, but it seems as a christian you were doing everything Christ said not to do, no wonder you weren't happy as a Christian, you were living a life outside of what Christ called us to live, maybe you should try again and this time doing it with the love of Christ, the real love for mankind, a love that was given to save people from a destination the couldn't otherwise escape.

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My moral nature that's from God is nothing like the White Supremacists, their's is hate mine is love, they developed their's contrary to God, God planted his in me and then explained to me what they are and how to use them.
I find White Supremacists repugnant because of their less than moral morals. I find my moral morals that come from God's love to be very satisfying and bring great joy to me. I know what repugnant means, what I'm not sure of is how much it's blinded you to God's truth. God finds your sin very repugnant, but not to the degree of hatred you show towards Him. God's willing to forgive you of what He sees repugnant in you if you'll ony accept who Jesus is and what He did for us.[/]

You clearly have never met actual White Supremacists in person. I happen to agree with your analysis of their position, but what you don't realize is I can't really tell an effective difference in their reasoning/beliefs and yours, except that they consider race-mixing to be a sin (they agree with most everything else that you call "sin", and many if not most of them are Christians, too).

I've been in the home of the Grand Wizard of the KKK and I understand exactly what goes on with their twisted ideologies, for one killing people because their different is hate period. Hatred and murder have no place in Christianity, a definite teaching of Christ and His disciples.
I think you can't find a difference in how you conducted yourself as a Christian and what you see in them, I see this as a very sad thing, especially for someone with your intelligence.

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Ha, Ha, Ha, that's funny and far from the truth, I'm a natural leader. As for who obeys whom, it's simple, I understand to some degree what the spiritual battle means and want everyone to be on the winning side.[/]

Don't you get it? You just confirmed exactly what I was saying!

I thought you were saying I was submissive.

You have a moral compass that's changing with time and situations, mine doesn't because they come from an unchanging God who is omniscient and proved to me absolutely right. I do not have to worry about what's right for tomorrow because it's the same as today, this my friend is justice.[/] pid='1078096' dateline='1444371753']

I like how you think this is an insult to me. Improving our morality is a good thing, not something I should be ashamed of!

I wasn't insulting you, I was pointing out that changing morals do not have to always be a good thing for people and at times they are not. If you really followed the teachings of Jesus you would see we do not need to change morals.

I find your "unchanging Justice" to be the least just concept humans have ever concocted. By every measurable standard, our morality has improved since the times of Moses and David and Jesus. And to the degree our society has improved, pretty much everyone but you would agree that we're better off now than we were when it was okay to own slaves, or when it was okay to suppress and segregate black people, when you could beat your wife for disobeying you, when rape victims could be "put on trial" for their sexual habits when they tried to bring their rapist to justice, and a list that could fill a book! (And has.) The idea that we hit upon a concept of righteousness in the year _____ and should never deviate from it is the stuff of theocracy... lunacy.

I guess will have to agree to disagree on this, guess you haven't seen all the post where I take a stern stand against depriving blacks or any other race for any reason, it's just plain wrong. I don't support any of the other stuff you posted either.

In the future what will people call the way you see things because you didn't know what they discovered, idiot, false scientist, stupid jerks, unrealistic idiots, what? If they have your mentality and dislike for those of the past I'm sure those will be the names used all because you didn't know, this is your justice? Then have it, it will fair no better with the future than the way you're treating the people of the past. You are trying to equate the physical with the spiritual and that ain't going to ever work, God is interested in your spiritual life and destination to bad you're not.
You want be tortured and you're not being extorted, you are ranting from a self interest that leaves out your great potential to be of use to others, but I do not expect you to understand what I just stated because you lack the spiritual knowledge needed to do so. 
I'm not trying to upset you with the things I've said, wish I could believe that of you towards me but I'm finding that hard because you know how to use the atheist buttons in a more refined way, that changes nothing, it's still atheist tactics to unsettle Christians, you being skillful doesn't blind me to these things. I believe all in all we have some good conversation and my concern for your eternal life is meant as nothing short of good.

GC

Probably. I have little doubt that there are things we will discover in the future that will make some of our ideas today seem quaint. But I don't think we're entirely wrong, either. That's the whole point of trying to constantly figure out the truth, or to recognize where we have fallen short in our conception of justice, equality, and decency, and repair those ideas. People of the future will not fault those who tried to make the world better, and who nevertheless failed to get it all right... they will fault people like you, who stuck to their guns even in the face of the suffering a wrongheaded idea causes.

I don't "equate the physical and the spiritual". Quite the opposite. The physical is real. The spiritual is crap you make up, or rather swallow up, since others come up with most of those concepts for you to believe.

You forget I've had real experiences with God, He has revealed himself to me in ways that give me no doubts He's real.

I don't lack the "spiritual knowledge" (I also used to use that term on nonbelievers... except we preferred the term "lacks the spiritual discernment"), I simply don't agree with you. I have learned quite a few things since the days when I thought as you do.

I used "spiritual knowledge" because it means knowing for sure, spiritual discernment is knowing the differences of spiritual truths and the false things people call spiritual. The way you tried to use those verses you posted doesn't speak to highly of spiritual knowledge on your part, you showed how little you know about the scriptures. I'm not trying to say anything bad about you, I'm saying spiritual knowledge come from God, giving us the ability to understand His word and purposes.

Annnnnnnnd we're back to the "self-interest" argument. What part of all my protestations on behalf of others who are not like me (my primary complaint against religion usually being that it suppresses groups who are not like them!), and trying to extend a concept of human value that doesn't require conformity, strikes you as "self-interest"? I know the psychological defense-mechanism that causes you to misstate why I do and think the things I do, since it protects you from having to wonder if I might actually be right. As long as you can call me angry, or self-interested, or just another religion, etc, then you don't have to face the consequences of potentially concluding that I may have in fact been totally reasonable and thus might have a valid position.

When I say self interest I mean you think your way is right and that God doesn't mean anything to you, in other words you put yourself above the God of creation and salvation. It's the same thing Eve did when she listened to the serpent in the garden and then chose herself over God.

Since your religion teaches that your faith-tradition is the only possible reasonable position, it causes cognitive dissonance in your brain, and you must stretch for ways to protect yourself from it. It's okay. I forgive you.

I don't need your forgiveness unless I've offended you purposely which I don't think I have. I have full confidence in my beliefs, I know God is real, no doubts, none at all, that's why I seek His forgiveness daily, I know I offend Him, the holy, righteous God of salvation.
Don't fell like you need to answer this post I know we've stretched this thing out, sorry it took so long to answer, I wanted to make sure I answered all of it and I've been tied up with things around here.

GC

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Well, well. Someone took a "big boy" poop...

Anyone willing to wade though this should have their head examined...