A question about hell

[Drich]

Then I'm fine with that. I don't need him to live happily, and he doesn't need me to live happily, so we can live our lives separately.

Well, that's the thing.. When you remove God and all that He has created, what's left is Hell/torment, as you are a member of creation and long to be apart of it even if you don't want to be with God... So to have creation taken from you is to be banished into the pit/nothingness of Hell. At some point what holds you together (sanity) will also depart from you, and what is left will be consumed by Hell.

Which is how Hell is an eternal separation from God.

If it's just him leaving me alone, I'd actually prefer that. Many people seem to think the choice is between fiery torment or enslaving ourselves to someone. Both of which would be horrible, though I suppose if I was in heaven and only able to think and act how yahweh wants me to act, i wouldn't know how horrible my existence was.

And what if that is how you truly wanted to be/How you truly wanted to act?

I could be sent to a place where I have everything I need to care for myself and my loved ones. Even a simulation of Earth would be better than being some deity's lapdog. The idea that he wants absolute servitude, and the only other option is destruction or torture or whatever is extremely self centered. I shouldn't even have to explain that.

Are you familiar with the story of Joseph?/Coat of many colors Joseph not Jesus' dad?
Basically Joseph was sold into slavery by his brothers. He made the best of it and was thrown into prison. there he sat until one day Pharaoh had a reoccurring dream that tormented Him. Long story short Joseph through God interpreted that dream and saved Egypt. As a reward Pharaoh made Joseph ruler over all of Egypt. Only second to Pharaoh himself. Even so Joseph was a slave/servant to Pharaoh. At the time Egypt represented the whole of the 'modern world' It was the hub in which the world at the time revolved. And in the center of that hub was Joseph the ruler of everything except Pharaoh himself.

This is God's Idea of a servant/slave. This is how we will be tasked to serve God in our future. We will not all rule Egypt but when I do look heavenward I see an infinite number of stars.. Put that together with eternal life and I see that it is much better to live in service to God as Joseph was in service to Pharaoh, than to live in your 'best case scenario.' How long before your little house and your 'preferred' existence becomes a prison, especially when you see all that you could have been pass you by?

Not that I've never been self centered, but I've also never killed someone for not doing what I told them to do. Despite the fact that I KNOW what's best for everyone. Because I'm me. If everything in the world went the way I wanted them to, it would be perfect.

Would anyone have to die (ISIS) to make you 'perfect world' possible? If so then how exactly is what you are doing any different than what God has planned?

If I was all powerful, things would run a lot smoother. People wouldn't be debating my existence.

Would that negate choice? If the question of God is answered in an absolute, undeniable fact, then doesn't that remove all choice? That people would turn to God out of simple self preservation rather than love and respect?

Imagaine yourself to be one of these people. Someone who knew God their whole life and out of self preservation worshiped God. (Feared Hell more than Loved God) Now what if Christ determined that, that fear of hell was not enough, and what if that particular understanding only generated the luke warm Christian Christ hates?
(Someone simply going through the motion?) would it be fair to those who don't really know better to be more than lukewarm?

As things are now, we are either hot or cold.. Yes their are those who are lukewarm, but the number is far fewer than if God was an absolute.

So your way = More people thrown into Hell who really don't understand why.

People who prayed to me would get what they need.

How do you know that is not what is happening now?

As it stands you have people worshiping other gods.

how do you know that is not what they need?
You assume all Need to goto Heaven... Some people weren't meant to.

Even if they are fake, it means people are getting as much or more out of worshiping a fake deity as they are the real thing.

I truly believe that out of the major religions their is always something behind their worship. Some being or demon that fuels worship. From that perspective you are right as not all are God's Children. The devil has also planted his seed along those who grow for God, for them their worship to their 'god' does benfit them more than worshiping God.'

Rescue from what? Hell? You have a guy that creates a system where you either do what he wants, or he'll make sure you have a bad time.

Which if you were incharge it would seem you'd be doing the same thing.[/quote]

Did I say that? I don't think I mentioned throwing anyone into a pit of fire, or anything like that.

If you were God would you have to kill/destroy the people Satan put here to oppose and destroy your people, or is it your belief that given enough time everyone will come around?
(ISIS)

Judging people by their actions isn't foolishness. it's the only means of justice. You say we're judged on whether or not our sins are atoned by christ. In order to have that, you need to worship him. Follow the holy book. dedicate your life to Jesus.

Do you? What If I pointed to Book Chapter and verse of 'non Christians/people of 'other religions' getting judged by Christ as being 'saved?'
Again as Paul points out in our romans study, no one can boast about being saved by the works we do. Meaning our worship (as it is our works) does not save us. It is not a religion it is not a formula that saves us it is Christ and Christ alone.
For some that means strict Christianity, for others not. It all depends on what Christ has set in front of you to be faithful to.

Then it would be impossible to say who the real christians are.
This is why you have thousands of different denominations.

EXACTLY! Now your getting it.
This was the plan from the beginning! To be SO Free in God, we do not need tradition and ritual to worship. that a genuine relationship gets to define it's own parameters.

Let me ask you do you see your dad every Saturday morning between 8 and 10 and have breakfast?
I do. does it mean that you do not have a relationship with your dad? or does it mean we do not have to follow a predetermined set of rules to define what is and what is not a relationship?

Now that said their is nothing that prevents me from getting together with other people who have sat morning breakfast and doing this all together...

That is what 'church' is supposed to be. Not a set of rules or worship techniques. That is why all the different books of the NT address different problems or different aspects of worship. Because in our freedom to worship god we has as much or as little freedom as our hearts and minds can deal with.. for some they need to be locked down to tradition and ritual while others need the freedom to worship as they see fit. Granted their are guide lines but they all roll back to loving God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself. aside from that we are free. The whole bible screams this fact.

Because christians can't decide on what they need to do to get into heaven, and they still expect us to convert somehow.

We 'convert' based on what we know. Or based on what the 'convert' can handel.

Are the westerners asking the Syrians to move also the ones threatening to kill them if they don't?

The will die, by their own inaction/staying on the path that they currently live on.. Just like all unrepentant sinners.[/quote]

That's not what I asked.

You asked a loaded question. God does not kill anyone. They like those who want to stand their ground with ISIS will be killed when that time comes.

I'm not purposefully avoiding some kind of evidence from god. I just don't know why an all knowing all present force needs workarounds to initiate a relationship with people. He wants something from me, and he's going to try to get it in the most complicate way possible.

What you see as a 'work around' or as a complication I see as a demand for respect and humility.

Imagine trying to help someone out and it cost you your son to do so. Now it is bad enough to go out of your way to help someone out/Someone who would literally die if you did nothing, and they are not only thankless they feel entitled to your help, and demand more than what you offer, and worse yet you have to meet them on their terms... Now Imagine helping someone out and it cost you your son, and this self righteous SOB not only feels entitled to what you have done, but also demands that you debase yourself further by personally jumping through hoops (perfore magic tricks on demand/grant wishes) as some sort of reassureance that your offer was genuine.

when from the beginning You are willing to offer, but only on your terms. Because you know the nature of people. Meaning you know if people are not made to meet you on your terms they will have you, (despite all that you do,) try and meet them on their terms.

IDK about you but I have tried to help self righteous/Self entitled people before. They are not only beyond help they only want to take advantage of what directly benefits them, and screw the process that is in place that can benfit many many others. I would let everyone rot who is not willing to meet me 1/2 way.. Even so God doesn't even ask for 1/2 way. He simply seeks a heart humble enough to Acknowledge Christ and what has been done.[/quote]

You have no room to demand respect or humility when you refuse to show yourself properly.

The phrase "Humble yourself before the Lord and HE will Lift you up." comes to mind. The demand is to humble yourself First. If you can manage that then like doubting Thomas you will get everything You personally need to establish and maintain a relationship with God. (that's the lifting up.)

The problem is that no one sees the helping.

No one who? Atheist? I would sharply disagree. I personally see it everyday. But that said it took me a long time before I wanted to see what God wanted to show me.

All we have are stories written by people who claimed to be divinely inspired. How can we thank someone who we don't know exists?

Who said thank? I said we must first humble ourselves before God. To Humble is to A/S/K for the Holy Spirit.

Why would I thank someone who brutally murdered his son because he thinks that somehow absolves anyone of wrongdoings? Even if I knew it all happened, I would still feel it too immoral to thank him for it. It's gross.

What makes you think God murdered his son?

I'm going to have to continue tomorrow.. computer problems and I have a meeting to get to...

but again sport.. the 'proof' is not dependant on anything the guy telling the good news has. The proof is in following the directions the guy gives you. That is how all directions are vetted. It's in the following to see if they take you where they claim to go...
In this situation, their is no cost nor is their risk. All one must do in his own personal private life is simply humble themselves before God and A/S/K as outlined in Luke 11.
The only real risk is you find out that God is real and has been patiently waiting.

The directions the guy gives, which is second hand knowledge at best, and can be read in enough different ways that different people can fervently believe it while also disagreeing with other people on what exactly it says. It's faulty. I was already humble as a child. I believed everythign I was told, and read through the bible a number of times. Nothing happened, so I left. When I want a relationship with someone, I seek them out. I don't write notes for other people to send. I don't wait and hope they notice me. I e]

I expected some kind of definitive proof of Jesus that I could show other people. I guess I wanted to hang out with him and talk to him like a regular person. Nobody came to the door, or called me on the phone, or anything.

define constructive

I would say keeping a genocidal murder out of reach from those in whom he has a taste for is very constructive for those who other wise would be affected by this being.

Constructive would be doing something that helps a community. Like if another species was created, the convict could build houses for them. Clean up the area. Do something but rot away in a cell while someone tortures them. Or being dropped into a hole full of lava.

So.. is it your belief that everyone/thing is redeemable? Let's say something crazy like Demons are real.. soul eating demons. do you think that at some point their nature will ever change? do you think if simply given enough time that the most hard core isis fighter can and will see the world through your rose colored lenses?
Do you think that most hard core fighter could ever be trusted with your family unsupervised? If not what would you do with him? would a life sentence be too much? what if he lived forever? what if, for him it would be literal hell if he could not kill and mame people? is that sentence unjust if he can't live his life the way he wants?

I think pretty much anyone can be redeemed, given enough time. Except maybe sociopaths because there's something wrong with their brains and they can't feel empathy. As far as demons go, the only difference between a demon and an angel is that demons no longer worship Yahweh. So what would make them irredeemable? The most hardcore fighter can still be civil around some people some of the time. they have to be, right?

Then ask for book Chapter and verse.
With a reminder that Christians are not OT Jews under specific orders concerning a specific people/problem.

Yet you guys still kept it as part of your book. I'm sure partly because the bible would be much shorter without the OT.

They took control over europe at one time.

again without a biblical mandate, their actions were not Christian despite what they claim. How F'ed up is it that Sunni Muslims who have a Specific mandate to Kill/Murder Men women and Children who oppose their god, get a pass by saying "Only radical muslims do this" When again all Sunni Muslims have been given this mandate by their holy book!
Then Christians who are told by their Holy book that this type of behavior is evil, and those who participte in it will not enter Heaven are told the whole religion is evil because 'radicals' who went outside of our Holy book claim to do evil acts (described by said book as being Damnable) In God's name?

You people have things backwards. Christians do not have a command to take over the world by sword, if people will not listen, and we are call evil, when Muslims do have that exact command and those who do follow their Holy Teaching properly are call radicals... They are not Radical if they are following their teaching. they are simply devout. Which is miles away/complete oppsite of a devout Christian.

If someone claims to be christian, and can find a part of the bible that justifies what they already believe, then they're as christian as the next cherry picker.

They're trying to turn America into a theocracy.

They who?[/quote]

Ben Carson and Mike Huckabee are examples of presidential candidates who basically want a theocracy. And people vote for these guys.

They are christian extremists, and they are willing to bomb buildings and pass laws according to the bible, and so forth.

Again show me book chapter and verse. If you can't then accept youre not speaking of anything Christian. We have been told NOT to Rebel against our governing authorities. We are to work with in it's Social governmental structure. whether we like it or not.

They used to kill homosexuals, and some still call for it.

Again they who? and you need to provide
BCV[/quote]

Why do I need to provide BCV? These people are out there, and claim to be christian. I don't know what their BCV is, but I'm sure if you managed to ask them they'd tell you.

They're not as strong as they used to be, but that doesn't mean they didn't do those kinds of things when they were powerful. The Salem with trials is a good example. how many witches do you really think lived in Salem?

Again, Book chapter and verse.
Where do we as Christians have a mandate to burn witches?
If it is not in the bible, then the acts people do in the name of God, are akin to a psyco killing your family in your name. Even if you wanted nothing to do with that person and wanted to see him dead for his actions. It does not mean he was acting in accordance to your want or will, despite what he has said.[/quote]

Well we don't see Yahweh punishing these people and preventing them from draggng his name through the dirt. That's the problem when you start out as a genocidal maniac, then later decide you want to be nicer. Jesus is kind of nice sometimes. Yahweh was a psycho in the OT. That may have just been for the Jews, but when someone comes along saying he's the sone of the guy from the OT, then people are going to take the OT seriously. Especially when Jesus says he's not here to change the laws.

Christianity doesn't rule to the extent that they can do the kinds of things they used to do, and we're fighting to keep it that way. Yet we still have theocrats running for office that aren't being kicked out as soon as they say we should implement a flat tax just because the bible says so.

LOL
So.. flat tax=God is taking over[/quote]

It's one example. The fact that someone like Ben Carson has any chance to get into the white House is a very bad sign.

Whoopie Goldberg is that you? or has your insanity already infected the weak minded?
Show me Christian doctrine that demands attacks on people anywhere for any reason.
So if the bible does not authorize attacks in the name of Christ, then is it Christians in any way shape or form whoopee is really afraid of? (Let me put it another way just incase you are not whoopee.. (Meaning you are one of the weak minded) What if a serial killer started killing people in the 'name of President Obama.' Now mind you, that Obama speaks out against this psyco, and has absolutely nothing to do with Him, and even has put things in place to keep people from doing such things.. Yet here we have one or two isolated people who decide they want to attribute their evil to Obama.. Now does anyone really blame Obama? Does anyone have to fear Obama Himself?

Yet weak minded sheeple want to attribute the acts of crazy people to a doctrine that firmly stands against all the evil that has been done in its name.

You don't think there's any christian doctrine anywhere that encourages violence?

Nuupe.[/quote]

Well some do, and they'll likely call you a heretic for disagreeing with them.

Even if we leave out the old testament,

and you shoul as the OT Speaks to OT Jewish doctrine not Christianity. If we were meant to follow the OT we would be OT Jews and not Christian. My study in the book of Romans is laying out the reasons why.[/quote]

But it's still the first impression of Yahweh that we get, and the foudnation upon which christianity rests. So we're not just going to ignore the parts of it that more peaceful christians don't like.[/quote]

Also you don't see any similarities between the story of Prometheus, and the story of Genesis? Some non Human gives Humans a gift and is punished for it because the higher power didn't want them to have it. I doubt anyone would call Prometheus evil. I don't call the snake evil either.
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