Meaningfulness v meaninglessness; theism vs atheism;

[Watson]

That's irrelevant to the fact that imaginary meaning is still meaning.

No, imaginary meaning is equivalent to no meaning at all. That which exists in the imagination and in dreams is real on a different level than you or I are real. To bring dreams, imagination, meaning to this world which we live in requires that we reach for that other level and try to connect with it in some way. If the truth is that these things do not exist on some level separate from ourselves, then we cannot bring them to fruition on any level. Therefore, the meaning is an invalid; it does not exist.

Basically, meaning must be objective for it to actually be meaning. Otherwise we are left with a void concept.

How exactly does it add meaning to one's life if it is meaningless by nature?

If it feels meaningful despite the fact there is no objective meaning... who gives a shit?

You can't change the rules up like that. Either the fact that it 'feels' meaningful and is comforting in that way is not a valid argument, or it is. As I have stated above, imaginary meaning or a 'feeling' of meaningfulness without actual objective meaning is equivalent to no meaning at all. Just like you would argue that my feelings of God's existence hold no weight without an actual God who exists separate of those feelings.

Meaning, by its nature, is something that exists both within and without a person. Subjective and objective. The person meant to do something, and the something which they are meant to do.

It certainly can be. It's all subjective. It depends how you react to that belief.

I agree, but my position is that it depends on how you subjectively react to that belief. A belief in an objective meaning would push someone to fulfill that meaning...whereas a belief in a purely subjective meaning, if not followed to its logical conclusion of 'meaning does not truly exist', would not be a 'rational' goal to work towards or believe in/follow.

And there's no reason to believe in something or follow something if it doesn't exist, amirite?

And, in fact, to think of oneself as overly meaningful or too important, I would argue, is more likely to be harmful.

Agreed. No qualms from me here.

Our own sense of meaning defines who we are, and affects how we impact the world. Imagine that someone, somewhere out there is meant to make a huge difference in the world by doing something incredible.

If he believes he is meant to that will effect his behaviour whether there's really any objective meaning or not. Hence why objective meaning is........... COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT!!!

I see what you're saying here, but if the objective meaning itself is not real, then from what source does his meaning come? Is it just a fallacy, an invalid idea that exists solely within him as a subjective entity? Then to what end should he follow it, and why?

I'm perfectly willing to accept you BELIEVE in objective meaning and that that belief can influence your life......... but that's COMPLETELY DIFFERENT to actually having objective meaning. Merely believing can just be a placebo. Which is my entire point about subjective meaning being able to be meaningful - it works like a placebo.

As I've stated above, imaginary or purely subjective meaning = no meaning at all. We're discussing objective meaning here. Whether or not it actually exists, and if not, how anything can have any sort of meaning at all.

So let me ask you this, DvF. Do you believe you have any meaning at all?

FOR FUCKS SAKE. I'll just draw the analogy with humour again: Something is funny merely because you believe it is. It's merely the placebo effect. Is that meaningless? Well objectively it is but who gives a shit? It may be meaningless but it's not useless.... humour can be used to bring a lot of pleasure to our lives.

Chill out, dude, it's just a conversation on the internet.

Anyway, as you can see above, I've essentially answered this already. We are discussing objective meaning and whether it exists or not. To say that something is subjectively funny is to say the same thing as something is not funny at all. Our subjective feelings on it hold no value here, as they do not impact whether or not something is funny. Only if it is objectively funny, and we subjectively recognize it as such, do our feelings on the matter hold any weight.

And as you, and many other atheists have stated in the past, there is no reason to find something 'funny' where there is truly nothing 'funny' at all.