Sicne yukapuka is now actually having a discussion with topic repliers, perhaps I should direct them to my previous post commenting on some of the assertions made in their initial post to this topic.
(January 6, 2016 at 5:35 pm)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: First of all, if you're going to be so ritualistic as to say (PBUH) all the time, how about using the Unicode character for it? ﷺ
(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: Firstly the majority of the Arab people were a desolate people, heavily and completely isolated and ignorant of even the outside world, they lived in the desert in very tough conditions that probably most other nations would not have hung around very long due to the scarcity of water and food in general and most other nations didnt even bother to have any relations with them trade or otherwise, they were as described by one English author
I have to cast doubt on that claim. It's apparently not true according to the Quran. There are two Iyah that imply that the people of Mecca, at least, were not isolated. All of my translations will be Abdullah Yusuf Ali and I will not be referring to any Hadith (I don't like the Hadith).
Quran 2:127 "And remember Abraham and Isma'il raised the foundations of the House (With this prayer): "Our Lord! Accept (this service) from us: For Thou art the All-Hearing, the All-knowing."
and Quran 3:96 "The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings:"
While it is true that nobody bothered to conquer (southern) Arabia*, the Quran claims that Mecca is an ancient city (it's nowhere near as old as the Quran claims) and the first place of worship. In particular Quran 3:96 claims that the original Mosque was built at Bakkah (Mecca) which would make it older than all Churches, Synagogues and any other place of worship you can think of.
*You'd think that Mecca being an important place of pilgrimage for thousands of years, as the two Iyah claim, would give empires reason to conquer it, so they could control the flow of money into Mecca, but no. The reason is Mecca didn't exist until shortly before the time of Muhammad because there is no archaeology to support the claims that the Quran makes about it.
But let's assume the Quran is actually correct, for the sake of argument, and that Mecca is this ancient city that people have gone on pilgrimage to for many thousands of years. How can you claim that the Arabs were isolated? People mingle during pilgrimage. They will inevitably talk to each other whilst in Mecca and, therefore, facilitate the flow of ideas across all of Arabia. Your assumption that the Arabs were isolated is simply not true if we assume the Quran is correct about history (which it is not).
(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: 4. Sabines. They worshipped the stars.
Second, the Sabines lived in Italy, so I assume you mean Sabians. Funny that you should say they worship the stars. Quran 2:62 claims that the Sabians will go to Jannah:
"Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
However, Quran 41:37 says this:
"Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve."
This verse mentions the sun specifically. And the stars are suns also. So, if we extrapolate, the Sabians are clearly committing Shirk - the worst sin (if they worship the stars, as you claimed). You claimed the Sabians commit Shirk yet, oddly, Quran 2:62 claims that the Sabians will go to Jannah. Who is right? I thought Shirk was the ultimate, unforgivable, sin?
Quran 4:48 "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed."
Quran 4:48 surely contradicts Quran 2:62, especially since Quran 41:37 mentions star worship as a specific sin (i.e. Shirk). Given what Quran 4:48 says, even if a Sabian was to recite Shahada, they will not go to Jannah despite what Quran 2:62 says. Why is there this crucial error in the Quran? How can you explain that away?
Quran 4:48 is interesting for another reason as well. It mentions something that Allah clearly cannot do. Which is another contradiction.
Quran 35:44 says that Allah is all powerful (Allah can do anything):
"Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the End of those before them,- though they were superior to them in strength? Nor is Allah to be frustrated by anything whatever in the heavens or on earth: for He is All-Knowing. All-Powerful."
But Allah is unable to forgive Shirk, so that means there are things which Allah cannot do. Even if we exclude Shirk, does the verse mean Allah can lie or mislead? If Allah can't lie, then Allah can't be all-powerful, as the Iyah claims.
(January 6, 2016 at 9:37 am)yukapuka Wrote: Arabian people where cut off from the rest of the world with illiteracy and the problems and ignorance and the hot heat of the desert that isolated the people from going forward in any of those directions as death shadoweded them in all direction, from society and from the harsh weather and their own ignorance
Being illiterate doesn't mean you're completely ignorant. You can still acquire knowledge. And, as I said, the Quran asserts that Mecca is at least as old as Abraham, so would have always (according to the Quran) been pretty important (i.e. not isolated as you claim).
That's all I got for now. Thanks for for reading. I'm sure there will much disagreement to come.
