RE: Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus is Not God
March 5, 2011 at 8:55 pm
(This post was last modified: March 5, 2011 at 8:58 pm by fr0d0.)
I really really really don't want to get into this discussion with you Rayaan, but I'll answer and leave it there if you don't mind. You did just ask my opinion after all.
1 Jesus never claimed Divinity [start time 3:38]
He claimed divinity (John 8:58) and thus equality with God (John 10:28-30). These claims led to charges of blasphemy (Matthew 26:63-66) and death by crucifixion.
He was God before he was born in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word ... and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
"before time" *ahem* (notes logical gaff)
1 God and not 3 Gods [start time 20:07] Christians declare there to be 1 God, three in one. Like Genesis One verse 26 says... "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image" http://bible.cc/genesis/1-26.htm <-- note all translations use the plural. How can Islam ignore that and claim a singular.
Verse 11: "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me." ...Jesus is saying that his name is the same as God.
Universal message:
According to Jesus' own words, his mission is universal:
His death is meant to accomplish the redemption of all mankind - Mt 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32; etc.
His gospel message was to be preached to all mankind - Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8.
His kingdom includes people of all nations - Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52.
In Philippians 2, Jesus is said to be "in very nature God" (verse 6); and is to be worshiped as Lord: "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (verses 10-11). This statement paraphrases Isaiah 45:23, where God speaks of himself.
Children of God yes. Sons of God? Only one I know of.
[time 43:37] He got the wrong verse, it's Matthew 15:9 and not 15:18 where Jesus says, "they shall worship me in vein"
Mistranslation. The text is clearly about the false worship practised:
The Pharisees prayed in the synagogues, read, and, in their way, expounded the books of Moses, and the prophets, to the people, diligently observed the rituals of the ceremonial law, brought their offerings and sacrifices to the temple, and neglected nothing appertaining to the outward service of it; and yet it was all "in vain", and to no purpose; since the heart was wanting, no grace there, they acted from wrong principles, and with wrong views; their worship was merely outward, formal, and customary.
Fully God
Isa. 9:6; Matt. 11:27; 16:16; Mark 2:5-7; Luke 5:20-22; 9:20; John 1:1; 1:14; 2:19, 21; 3:13, 31; 5:18; 6:38; 8:58; 9: 38; 10:17; 10:30; 13:3; 14:9; 14:23; 16:15; 16:28; 17:8; 17:21-23; 20:28; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 10:3-4; 15:47; 18:4-6; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-17, 19; 2:9; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:2-3, 8-11; 2:7, 9, 14, 16; 13:8; 1 John 5:20; Rev. 1:8, 17; 2:8; 3:14.
Fully human
Matt. 1:1, 18-25; 4:2; 26:38; Luke 1:26-38; 9:58; 22:44; John 1:14; 11:33-35; 19:28, 34; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 15:3; Gal. 4:4; Phil. 2:5-11; 1 Tim. 2:5; 3:16; Heb. 2:14-15, 17-18; 4:15; 10:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7.
1 Jesus never claimed Divinity [start time 3:38]
He claimed divinity (John 8:58) and thus equality with God (John 10:28-30). These claims led to charges of blasphemy (Matthew 26:63-66) and death by crucifixion.
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #10 - God Can not be Born! [start time 04:00]Jesus is fully God and fully man. Man can be born.
He was God before he was born in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word ... and the Word was God" (John 1:1).
"before time" *ahem* (notes logical gaff)
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #09 - There is unequivocal textual evidence [start time 05:05]See 1
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #08 - No one has seen God! [start time 09:20]Jesus's outward form was human. You don't "see" God by looking at Jesus. You see God by his actions... by looking where he has been. People seeing Jesus were not automatically convicted of his divinity. That required faith, as it does now.
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #07 - This was the not belief of early Christians [start time 11:31]There were many deviations that were not what I'd call mainstream Christianity. Islam would call itself a Christian religion if that were so, as it shares some of these ideas. That is not, however, consistent with the universal (catholic (small 'c')) church's position.
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #06 - Jesus Ate, Slept, and Prayed [start time 14:38]Jesus was also fully man and deferred to God the Father many times > acknowledging the limitations of his human form. He also forgave sins, healed people and performed miracles. Here we find fully human and fully divine natures related.
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #05 - Jesus claimed that God's Knowledge is greater than his [start time 16:44]He made the distinction between himself and God the Father, yes. God limited himself as Christ, otherwise he couldn't be a human. To follow that through to its logical conclusion you could also say that God could have no influence on this reality, because that would also be limiting himself... but this is fully consistent with Christianity and the miracle of Jesus... God incarnate.
1 God and not 3 Gods [start time 20:07] Christians declare there to be 1 God, three in one. Like Genesis One verse 26 says... "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image" http://bible.cc/genesis/1-26.htm <-- note all translations use the plural. How can Islam ignore that and claim a singular.
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #04 - Jesus Explicitly states that he is not God [start time 20:10]Misinterpretation. Verse 1: "Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him." ...only God can forgive sins.
Verse 11: "Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me." ...Jesus is saying that his name is the same as God.
Universal message:
According to Jesus' own words, his mission is universal:
His death is meant to accomplish the redemption of all mankind - Mt 20:28 = Mk 10:45; Jn 3:16; 4:42; 12:32; etc.
His gospel message was to be preached to all mankind - Mt 10:18; 24:14; 28:18-20; Mk 13:10; 14:9; 16:15; Lk 4:25-30; 24:47; Jn 17:20-21: Acts 1:8.
His kingdom includes people of all nations - Mt 8:11-12; 21:43; 25:31-32; Lk 13:28-30; Jn 10:16; 11:52.
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #03 - Son of God? [start time 22:50]Everyone was called lord [time 23:31] Jews and Christians refused to acknowledge the Roman emperor as "the Lord" (in an absolute sense, which is the way the emperor wanted it) because only God was "the Lord." Yet Jesus was called Lord, even the Lord
In Philippians 2, Jesus is said to be "in very nature God" (verse 6); and is to be worshiped as Lord: "At the name of Jesus every knee should bow ... and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" (verses 10-11). This statement paraphrases Isaiah 45:23, where God speaks of himself.
Children of God yes. Sons of God? Only one I know of.
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #02 - God does not change [start time 29:29]Again, John 1:1 "He was God before he was born in the flesh: "In the beginning was the Word ... and the Word was God"
(March 5, 2011 at 6:40 am)Rayaan Wrote: Reason #01 - God is the object of Worship! [start time 43:05]Jesus IS God. Moot point.
[time 43:37] He got the wrong verse, it's Matthew 15:9 and not 15:18 where Jesus says, "they shall worship me in vein"
Mistranslation. The text is clearly about the false worship practised:
The Pharisees prayed in the synagogues, read, and, in their way, expounded the books of Moses, and the prophets, to the people, diligently observed the rituals of the ceremonial law, brought their offerings and sacrifices to the temple, and neglected nothing appertaining to the outward service of it; and yet it was all "in vain", and to no purpose; since the heart was wanting, no grace there, they acted from wrong principles, and with wrong views; their worship was merely outward, formal, and customary.
Fully God
Isa. 9:6; Matt. 11:27; 16:16; Mark 2:5-7; Luke 5:20-22; 9:20; John 1:1; 1:14; 2:19, 21; 3:13, 31; 5:18; 6:38; 8:58; 9: 38; 10:17; 10:30; 13:3; 14:9; 14:23; 16:15; 16:28; 17:8; 17:21-23; 20:28; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 10:3-4; 15:47; 18:4-6; 2 Cor. 8:9; Phil. 2:5-11; Colossians 1:15-17, 19; 2:9; 1 Tim. 1:17; 2:5; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:2-3, 8-11; 2:7, 9, 14, 16; 13:8; 1 John 5:20; Rev. 1:8, 17; 2:8; 3:14.
Fully human
Matt. 1:1, 18-25; 4:2; 26:38; Luke 1:26-38; 9:58; 22:44; John 1:14; 11:33-35; 19:28, 34; Romans 9:5; 1 Cor. 15:3; Gal. 4:4; Phil. 2:5-11; 1 Tim. 2:5; 3:16; Heb. 2:14-15, 17-18; 4:15; 10:5; 1 Peter 2:24; 1 John 4:2; 2 John 7.