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Necessary Thing
RE: Necessary Thing
(April 21, 2016 at 7:47 am)robvalue Wrote: We seem to be talking entirely at cross purposes.

I'm saying we have an observable set of objects A. Let set B be the unobservable ones.

B might be empty, but we can't assume it is.

Objects in set A may be contingent on objects in group B.

If they are, we have no way to examine this relationship whatsoever. A case as simple as B containing two objects, both contingent on each other, and everything in set A being contingent on one of them, is enough to produce a result where nothing is non-contingent.

We can't simply say "so and so is impossible within group B because of a parallel with group A".

Thanks for clarifying!

1) The example you provide is not an infinity of conditions. Rather it is a circular one composed of a finite set.
2) Mutual contingency is not actually contingency. 

Consider the hypothetical thing X which exists on the condition that Y exists, which is to say Y's existence is more fundamental than X => If X exists, it presupposes the existence of Y. If Y exists, it does not presuppose the existence of X, but merely provides the conditions necessary for X. X means Y also. Y means just Y (and any of its own conditions).

Now consider mutual dependence. X exists on the condition that Y exists. If X exists, it presupposes Y also. However, Y exists on the condition that X exists. In other words, if X exists, it presupposes Y AND X also! Because the conditions of the conditions belong to the conditions of the thing itself, mutual contingency is really just non-contingency. Y(X) <= X(Y) <= Y(X). Pretty sure that just means that X = Y.
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Messages In This Thread
Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 4:05 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by ApeNotKillApe - April 15, 2016 at 4:07 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 4:24 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 4:27 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Edwardo Piet - April 15, 2016 at 4:11 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 4:35 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 15, 2016 at 4:30 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 5:11 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 4:35 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by ApeNotKillApe - April 15, 2016 at 4:45 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 15, 2016 at 4:47 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 4:53 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Edwardo Piet - April 15, 2016 at 4:44 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 4:54 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Excited Penguin - April 15, 2016 at 4:48 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Edwardo Piet - April 15, 2016 at 4:58 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:10 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:11 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by brewer - April 15, 2016 at 5:15 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:21 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by brewer - April 15, 2016 at 5:28 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:29 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by brewer - April 15, 2016 at 5:30 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:32 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by brewer - April 15, 2016 at 5:38 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Grandizer - April 20, 2016 at 11:13 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 12:37 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Grandizer - April 20, 2016 at 3:07 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 3:16 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 5:08 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 1:35 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 21, 2016 at 10:29 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 22, 2016 at 3:50 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by ApeNotKillApe - April 15, 2016 at 5:22 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:28 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by ApeNotKillApe - April 15, 2016 at 6:14 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 6:56 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:43 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 15, 2016 at 5:46 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by brewer - April 15, 2016 at 5:53 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 15, 2016 at 5:55 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:58 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 5:59 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by TheRocketSurgeon - April 15, 2016 at 6:12 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 15, 2016 at 6:16 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by TheRocketSurgeon - April 15, 2016 at 6:17 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 15, 2016 at 6:18 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by TheRocketSurgeon - April 15, 2016 at 6:25 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 6:52 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by TheRocketSurgeon - April 15, 2016 at 8:54 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 2:53 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 10:27 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 10:32 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 6:47 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 10:23 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by FebruaryOfReason - April 15, 2016 at 6:25 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by brewer - April 15, 2016 at 6:26 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 15, 2016 at 6:28 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by ApeNotKillApe - April 15, 2016 at 7:08 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 15, 2016 at 7:10 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 7:14 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 15, 2016 at 7:24 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 15, 2016 at 7:28 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 15, 2016 at 7:52 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 3:41 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 10:31 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 10:33 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 10:48 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by ignoramus - April 15, 2016 at 9:18 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 3:49 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Angrboda - April 16, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 12:54 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 16, 2016 at 1:02 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 2:29 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Angrboda - April 16, 2016 at 1:16 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 2:25 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 2:20 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 3:04 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by TheRocketSurgeon - April 16, 2016 at 2:41 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 2:57 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by TheRocketSurgeon - April 16, 2016 at 3:01 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 3:08 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by TheRocketSurgeon - April 16, 2016 at 3:11 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 16, 2016 at 3:11 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 3:13 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 16, 2016 at 3:16 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 3:18 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by TheRocketSurgeon - April 16, 2016 at 3:36 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Angrboda - April 16, 2016 at 5:19 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 5:55 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 16, 2016 at 6:00 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 16, 2016 at 6:09 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 16, 2016 at 6:38 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Angrboda - April 16, 2016 at 6:52 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 4:49 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by downbeatplumb - April 17, 2016 at 5:20 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 5:46 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by downbeatplumb - April 17, 2016 at 8:36 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 8:56 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by downbeatplumb - April 17, 2016 at 12:56 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 2:09 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 17, 2016 at 5:41 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 5:50 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Little lunch - April 17, 2016 at 6:13 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by little_monkey - April 17, 2016 at 9:46 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 11:33 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Goosebump - April 17, 2016 at 11:42 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by abaris - April 17, 2016 at 11:46 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 2:06 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 17, 2016 at 12:16 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 17, 2016 at 2:17 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 17, 2016 at 3:16 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 18, 2016 at 6:04 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 18, 2016 at 6:17 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 9:49 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 20, 2016 at 11:08 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Edwardo Piet - April 18, 2016 at 7:58 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 9:55 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 19, 2016 at 1:47 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 10:01 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 9:59 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 10:01 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 10:13 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 10:28 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 10:45 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 12:23 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 1:58 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 20, 2016 at 2:46 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 11:05 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by The Valkyrie - April 20, 2016 at 5:49 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Whateverist - April 20, 2016 at 6:40 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 1:44 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 3:11 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 3:17 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 3:58 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 4:02 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 4:15 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 4:23 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 5:27 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 5:03 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 5:49 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 7:04 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Grandizer - April 21, 2016 at 7:07 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 7:12 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 7:09 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 7:15 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 7:25 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 7:34 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 7:47 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 8:11 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 8:13 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 8:13 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 8:17 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 8:17 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 8:26 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 8:23 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 8:28 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 8:28 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 8:36 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 8:52 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 8:40 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 8:45 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 8:55 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 8:58 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 11:51 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by bennyboy - April 21, 2016 at 7:34 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 22, 2016 at 3:23 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 9:24 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 10:48 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 12:00 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 11:59 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 12:06 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 12:03 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 12:07 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 12:09 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 12:10 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 12:11 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 21, 2016 at 5:07 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 12:19 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 21, 2016 at 12:37 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 22, 2016 at 12:56 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 22, 2016 at 2:12 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 22, 2016 at 4:03 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 23, 2016 at 8:44 pm
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 5:54 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 6:04 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 6:18 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 6:24 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 6:36 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 6:42 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 6:48 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 6:49 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 7:03 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 7:25 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by downbeatplumb - April 24, 2016 at 7:59 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 8:43 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 8:25 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 8:46 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 9:27 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 9:54 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 10:06 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 10:10 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by Ignorant - April 24, 2016 at 10:18 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by robvalue - April 24, 2016 at 10:27 am
RE: Necessary Thing - by J a c k - April 24, 2016 at 1:14 pm

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