Pornography - are you for or against it and why?

[tackattack]

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That's the exact same argument against videogames...

Then they will not censor or ban video games.

Yes that in effect is my stance. That was a good example as well. Looking at a drawing though isn't intended to immerse people in the experience. A drawing can be deemed "artistic erotica" and people can find beauty in it without the intent being to excite people's baser instincts. As Ash eluded to, video games and snuff films (and all the other illegal categories) are meant to draw in the audience and have them
"experience" that fantasy. That takes it out of simple visual recognition and processes it through the emotional memory centers of the brain and backs up the urges with chemical rewards. It increases compulsion if done regularly. If you can look at a snuff film of child abuse or rape and have no emotional response great... then it doesn't apply to you. But it apparently turns on a whole mess of people because they have their own porn category. I think that speaks volumes about the urges of the average person, and personally makes me sad to be human sometimes.

That is all fine and dandy, and yes, it makes sense. BUT! We are talking about something that people SHOULD KNOW is FICTIONAL, or ACTING. The idea that it is, in fact, fictional based IS a factor as well. Someone who wanted the real thing would not be searching in a place where he/she knows where it is just play acting.

Please...let us at least agree that there is a KNOWLEDGE that the material is fictional.

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I agree that for most people there is a knowledge that it's fictional. But don't you think a pedophile watches the fakes and gets his rocks off just the same because he wants the fantasy to be real. It's a blurry line between knowing it's fake and wanting it to be real. Some of us have fine upstanding personal morality, not everyone does, and some people are no more thinking about controlling their instincts than a well trained dog. I think someone who wanted the real thing, but knew it was illegal and was struggling with the idea would seek out just this type of legal fake porn. I also think it would increase their urges to make that fantasy a reality, which is why I'm against that type of legal porn.

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4- The small point you’re conceding to is the only point I’m trying to make, and it’s the reason I don’t support the porn industry and voted no. Rape, child molestation, spousal abuse is illegal because they have victims. People can watch all the porn they want and never think of the repercussions of their influence on demand. I say there is a considerable increase in urges when you bombard your brain with repetitive fantasies and fortify that with chemical rewards in the brain. I think this increases, needlessly, or at the least contributes to an increase in demand and acting on those impulses. I think this does break the intent of the law which is to prevent more victimization, and is poor business ethics to bend the rules so that you’re clearly simulating illegal activity.

Making a thing illegal means that it is occurring naturally and you want it to stop. Porn 'artists' or whatever are not simulating an illegal activity to expand their business: they are simulating an activity people desire to expand their business, Remove the illegality of it, and it will remain. Reinstate the illegality of it, and it will remain.

Rape is hardwired into us as a result of the disgusting natural device that is the survival of the most lucky... where every abhorrent thing you can do to get ahead at the expense of others of your group increases your chances of propagating your DNA. Not to mention the nonexistence of consent in the beginning of it all.

6- This is another point we’re just going to have to disagree on. We’re from 2 different worlds on this. I would never intentionally exploit anything I valued, and I value human life. I don’t live by the selfish principle and I don’t instill that in my children. I don’t think we can reach common ground on this either.

I'm honest about my exploitation of things. I also am a chronic donator. I understand that I enjoy giving people things, therefore even when I give to them: i am exploiting them to my own end (feeling better). I intentionally hang out with people I like because I enjoy them being there (am though often unconsciously, i realize I am exploiting them because of this). Me exploiting people doesn't bug me in the slightest. I cannot escape a selfish principle, no matter how much I give without killing myself. And suicide to give to others because it's what I want to do is as selfish as it gets.

8-I would consider regulating anything that pretended to be illegal like: rape, incest, minor sex, abuse, snuff films, etc. Catering to these activities when they are intended to be real encourages people to fantasize about doing said activities and increases their compunction to act them out. They might not necessarily act on them, but let’s face it; Generally, people are weak willed and do whatever pleases them. The very purpose for porn is to get you involved enough emotionally so that it “feels real” which is different than a war movie telling a story. It’s meant to draw you in and it can be addictive. I see legal porn generally as having little productive value compared to real life, but people should be allowed to watch it. I specifically find the fact that there is legal porn faking illegal acts so abhorrent as to warrant regulation.

People fantasize about doing these things anyway. I'd rather have a people that are used to using their imaginations: it accelerates their creativity, and makes them more useful en masse. Generally, people are cowards, and fear the strong steel fist of authority. Shoot people for breaking a law, and you will find that usually people are too scared of you to retaliate. Depends on what the law is. People aren't going to form an armed rebellion because you are denying them (a type of) porn. They will, however, still access that porn, and cause more crime than you were preventing. Illegalize beer, and you don't have people up in arms shooting guns in the air: you have bootleggers. Porn? Same. You accomplish nothing by banning porn... you infact make things worse (either in enforcing your ban or in the additional 'crimes' it causes).

War movies don't try to wrench with your emotions? Why the hell would they show you things from people's perspectives then? That doesn't help us understand the strategy or facts one bit. It is entirely emotional. A strategy video doesn't integrate a person emotionally: it is a lesson. I find that there are video games in which I may vandalize without hurting others to the effect that I don't have to vandalize to get my destructive thrills.

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That's the exact same argument against videogames...

Then they will not censor or ban video games.

Because if 'they' do, we won't be able to shoot each other in the head without actually physically damaging each other. We have guns, and we will then use them

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4-Once again I'm not saying make it illegal. I agree people are "simulating an activity people desire to expand their business". My opinion was this activity increases the demand for it, therefore increases the peoples desire for more of it. Do you cater to those "hardwired disgusting instincts" or do you separate yourself from them? You are making the case that there's a Hannibal, Jeffry Dahmer and Hitler inside each one of us. I don't think I'm hard wired to rape someone. That doesn't mean that It's not somewhere deep in my subconscious id, but I would never do that.

6- If you consciously choose to do it for the reward then yes it's selfish, if it's a subconscious process and consciously you're just "being nice" without any thought of return then it's selfless. Both selfish and selfless imply conscious consent to act.

8- I don't fantasize about raping or beating up women or molesting children. And even if everyone did, which they don't, I don't think a populace with a more active imagination is a worthwhile tradeoff for one child getting victimized because people can't control their urges. I'm not for prohibition of porn, I'm talking about at least attempting to cover up the fact you're condoning illegal actions by a little regulation. I just don't think an industry that caters to illegal fantasies, intends them to "feel real" for the viewer, and allow it to go completely unchecked and accessed by anyone of any age is worthy of publicly(or privately) supporting. I know this won't make any of it go away. I think condoning this activity leads to a more depraved society, not a more civilized one. Regulation will prevent people from rationalizing away their actions and put the accountability squarely on the person and easier to spot for prosecution.


On the side note, they have a rating system for games, at least it's in place. It may not be enforced and is easy to circumvent, but it's at least present and actionable. That's why I support grossly violent and inappropriate video games, but not porn; At least the game industry makes it seem they care on the surface.