"heaven" meme on facebook

[Wryetui]

Your response automatically starts wrong by you stating "ah, one of these", that is, inmediately labeling my person and tying me up to a certain pre-existent idea you have about a group of persons.

Well, my assumption was that you're "one of these" who blames god's alleged wrath on us ("You send yourself to Hell!") and defends his faith with the "No True Scotsman" fallacy ("No True Christian believes/does that! No True Christian could have left the faith!").


Maybe you'll prove me wrong. Let's see.

I believe that none of the blank statements you have made in your post are correct, but rather based on a fictional form of christianity that you have created yourself, and are judging me and my beliefs in base of that.

No, my assertions are based on a thorough reading of the entire Bible and 20+ years as a Christian myself. To me, all forms of Christianity are based on fiction.


I'll bet I wasn't a True Scotsman, though, was I? Was I?

You will have to provide to me evidence that "my religion is a death cult that touts cruelty, evil and spiritual threats", that is, you will have to show me how the Orthodox Church act like this and when exactly, otherwise I will not believe you and I will conclude that your statements are empty and devoid of any meaning.

Gladly.


so the Orthodox Church are True Scotsman, then, are they? Fine. The Orthodox Church is Christian, is it not?


That means that they believe that humanity's only salvation lies in the torture and death of a human sacrifice (Jesus), and that people who do not accept this gift and believe in their god will experience Hell. They also believe that the greatest possible human achievement is to die and experience Heaven. Sound about right?


They're a death cult because they glorify death, and Hell is the cruelty/spiritual threat that they broadcast as "god's love." Sickening.

Also, you have made the following statement about me: "You have simply done the mental gymnastics/been indoctrinated to such an extent that you don't see this." This is another blank statement, a huge accusation about a person you do not know, again based on your own made-up ideas. I was not blessed with someone who could have indoctrinated me because there was never such a person in my life, to my regret.

Hooooo boy...this cannot be a good sign...

I was an atheist like you, whom, following the philosophy of Nietschze, Kant and many others I reached the point in which God could not have been something that exists. Only after that I began to study Patristic theology and philosophy, besides Platonism and Neoplatonism, and I have concluded that atheism is wrong in its very nature.

Aaaand that would be the mental gymnastics I'm talking about.


Also, I haven't read any of that crap. There was one book, though, that pretty much single-handedly convinced me that the entire Bible is a lie. Know what book that was?


It was the Bible.

"Yes, according to your religion, the only point of Earthly life is so god can decide whether to burn you, and the only way to stop him is to placate his demands.", this is wrong, again. No, it is not wrong that the point in this earthly life is to redeem from sin and reach communion with God, theosis, but the rest of the phrase is utterly wrong. God does not decides whether or not "He burns us"

Oh? Who decides then?


If you're going to tell me that we decide, then no, that's not how that works. That takes us right back to the robber analogy. If your god invented Hell and all the criteria on which people end up there, then he is responsible when people go there. Them deciding not to follow god's criteria would be the equivalent of me telling the robber I'm not giving up my money.


If you're going to tell me that Hell isn't a place where people burn...that doesn't matter. Hell, whatever form it takes, is still the gun.

and no, nothing you can ever do will ever affect God's emotion towards you, love, so there is no such thing as called "to placate his demands" because he is not a tyrant.

"Love me, worship me, and believe in me despite all evidence to the contrary, or I will do the worst possible thing to you forever and ever and ever."


Yes, he is a tyrant.

At this point I understood that you are mad at God, or, at a kind of being that you call "God" but its entirely made up by you. This kind of emotionalism stops you from seeing the truth, which can only be attained in serenity and free of prejudices.

Really, bro? You're going there?


Do you believe in Thor? No?


Why are you so mad at Thor? What did a Thor-worshiper do to you that caused you to hate Thor?


I do not believe your god exists. How could I be mad at something that doesn't exist?


I think your beliefs are ridiculous and disgusting, and I am probably a little angry about all the damage that religious people do to others in the form of bigotry and oppression, but no, I'm not mad at your imaginary friend any more than you're mad at the Grinch for stealing Christmas from the Whos.

"Yes, according to your religion, Jehovah sends people to Hell. They do not send themselves.
If a robber sticks a gun in my chest and says he'll kill me if I don't give him all my money, am I killing myself if I refuse him?", this is blatantly false, again. Hell is not a place people get sent to, this is not heathenism, we do not believe in a place where the wicked get everlasting punishment for their deeds, that is paganism, so there cannot be something as "sending people to Hell" because Hell or Heaven are not places at all, it is not like you send someone to Virginia. Heaven and hell are relations to or experiences of God's just and loving presence. There is no created place of divine absence, nor is hell an ontological separation from God. One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are dimensions of God's intensifying presence, as this presence is experienced either as torment or as paradise depending on the spiritual state of a person dwelling with God. For one who hates God and by extension hates himself as God's image-bearer, to be encompassed by the divine presence could only result in unspeakable anguish. At this point I have acknowledged that you have no idea what "my religion" is, and you, in extension, cannot "hate my religion" since you did not describe it at all, you did not even talk about it.

Does your church not accept the gospels? Do those gospels not depict Jesus himself describing a place with weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the fire never goes out?


You know what? It doesn't matter what ridiculous, fictional form the "eternal torment" part takes, and you're totally beside the point by focusing on that. It doesn't matter if Hell is separation from god, a torturous existence in god's presence (because of whatever you said), or a lake of fire with demons and pitchforks and rivers of rancid shit sauce. The point is that you think your god is justified in inflicting eternal punishment for finite crimes committed by a creation that he knew in advance would behave that way.

No, "If a robber sticks a gun in my chest and says he'll kill me if I don't give him all my money, am I killing myself if I refuse him?", if a robber sticks a gun in your chest threatening you with killing you, you are not killing yourself if you refuse him, but your analogy is wrong since it has little to relate with the discussion, even if you believe it is perfect.

Gun=Hell


Robber=God


Me=Humans


If I refuse to believe in your god, I'm am not responsible for being in Hell any more than I'm responsible for being shot. The analogy seems pretty straight-forward to me, but let's see if you can explain yourself.

 I will give you an example. When I was little I went with my parents to see an underground cave, the most famous one in Spain, in a guided visit. However, that day was stormy, and I was afraid that we may miss the trip because of the rain, but the things changed and the sun started shining again, I cannot describe the happiness I felt when I saw the sun, its rays and its warm presence. We went to the cave and we spent, doing the guided visit, about half an hour in a overwhelming darkness (it was an underground cave), but my surprise was when we finally went outside. My first feeling was pain, pain everywhere. I felt like the sun was my worst enemy, its rays were now hurting me, I did not wanted to see the light anymore, I did not want it to shine, I would have wished that all the clouds in the world would have protected me! My eyes, of course, after all that time underground, got used to the darkness, and, when seeing the sun, the light afflicted me. Do you believe I should have started screaming and shouting to the sun things like: "Why are you punishing me?!" or "Why do you torment me like this?!", no, it did not make sense. The sun was exactly the same sun, it did not change at all, the same sun that conforted and gave me heat, that made me happy before entering the cave is now hurting me in the worst manner! It was not the sun's fault, the sun kept being like it always was, it was me that changed after going into the darkness, not the sun. The sun was not punishing me, I just felt the sun in an another way. Do you understand?

Yeah...THAT story has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and it does not adequately refute my analogy. What you're positing is a being that will inflict eternal torment on me (in one form or another) if I don't believe in him when I die. That is a gun-to-chest scenario. There is nothing sunny or pleasant about that, no matter how much time you spend in the cave of religion.

"Well, my assumption was that you're "one of these" who blames god's alleged wrath on us ("You send yourself to Hell!") and defends his faith with the "No True Scotsman" fallacy ("No True Christian believes/does that! No True Christian could have left the faith!").", there is not a thing called "God's wrath", as I have told you. God's only feeling towards you is love, and everything He does is for your good and because He loves you. Rather than the pompous statement this can be, it hides all the truth from christianity, either you accept it or not.

"No, my assertions are based on a thorough reading of the entire Bible and 20+ years as a Christian myself. To me, all forms of Christianity are based on fiction.", since you obviously lack theology, I believe you lied to me and you did not even touch the Bible (most likely). No, to you, not all forms of christianity are based on fiction. You just simply got dissapointed by some form of protestantism and you decided we are all the same. Very anti-intellectual, in my opinion.

"That means that they believe that humanity's only salvation lies in the torture and death of a human sacrifice (Jesus), and that people who do not accept this gift and believe in their god will experience Hell. They also believe that the greatest possible human achievement is to die and experience Heaven. Sound about right?" Just because you do not like how this sound it doesn't make it true. You can do in this life thousands of achievements, but compared to the eternal blessing of be in God's grace (uncreated energies) they are nothing. Also, Heaven is an experience of the soul that starts in this life, not "after death".

"They're a death cult because they glorify death, and Hell is the cruelty/spiritual threat that they broadcast as "god's love." Sickening.", it is true, God's love is what make people suffer in the state of Hell. Again, you are just being emotional here, you did not make an actual statement. You just said that it is unpleasant to you how christianity is. This has no point in it being real or not. Wars are also displeasant to me but they still exist.

"Also, I haven't read any of that crap. There was one book, though, that pretty much single-handedly convinced me that the entire Bible is a lie. Know what book that was? It was the Bible.", I do believe that this is a lie you are telling yourself.

"
Oh? Who decides then?


If you're going to tell me that we decide, then no, that's not how that works. That takes us right back to the robber analogy. If your god invented Hell and all the criteria on which people end up there, then he is responsible when people go there. Them deciding not to follow god's criteria would be the equivalent of me telling the robber I'm not giving up my money.If you're going to tell me that Hell isn't a place where people burn...that doesn't matter. Hell, whatever form it takes, is still the gun."

"If you're going to tell me that we decide, then no, that's not how that works.". This is a lie.

"That takes us right back to the robber analogy.", analogy which fails and I explained why.

"If your god invented Hell and all the criteria on which people end up there, then he is responsible when people go there." Lies over lies. And this comes from a person that over the course of 20 years did read the Bible everyday (just the Bible, of course, God forbid he actually read some christian history, exegesis of some early Fathers and so on...). First of all, what is this nonsense of "god invented Hell", didn't I tell you that Hell is not a place but a response of the soul to God's presence? That is exactly the analogy about me and the sun. While I experienced the sun as being a warm ball in the sky that gave me confort, some people may experience it as pain and burning. That is all of it, not the sun is the problem, but the people that are experiencing the sun. "He is responsible when people go there", again, Hell is not a place where you go like you go to a vacation because it is not a physical space. Let me copy-paste the information you did not read: "Hell or Heaven are not places at all, it is not like you send someone to Virginia. Heaven and hell are relations to or experiences of God's just and loving presence. There is no created place of divine absence, nor is hell an ontological separation from God. One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are dimensions of God's intensifying presence, as this presence is experienced either as torment or as paradise depending on the spiritual state of a person dwelling with God. For one who hates God and by extension hates himself as God's image-bearer, to be encompassed by the divine presence could only result in unspeakable anguish."

Basically this is it: God creates humanity, the humanity (Adam and Eve) fall because they must be put to test in order for them to want God, not to merely be in communion with Him like puppets. But of course, the fall, that is, separation from God, caused effects in humanity, since they separated from the source of life (God is life) death entered into the world, human will became gnomic, suffering appeared and so on... But God saw this, and He knew perfectly that people, due to the corruption their soul is damaged and will experience Him as suffering when His created energies will shine upon them, did something to bring them to life, gave the world Himself in order to save them from the effects of the fall, corruption, death, suffering and so on. This was not a Plan B, was the plan from the beginning, the Incarnation of the Word. So it happened, the Word incarnated, thus uniting the fallen human nature with the perfect divine nature, ascending people to where they should be. This is subjective redemption, now, every person must take objective redemption, that is, willing participation in the acts of redemption. I do not see anywhere the angry God you described, what are you talking about?


"Does your church not accept the gospels? Do those gospels not depict Jesus himself describing a place with weeping and gnashing of teeth, where the fire never goes out?", a place, again? Of course He describes that, and yes, my Church not only accepts the Gospels, but collected the Gospels into what we now call the Bible around the 4th century. Yes, Jesus Christ describes all of that, but the question you are missing is: Even if Jesus Christ describes these places of suffering, does the suffering here occur because Jesus Christ punishes people with it, or has another nature?

"The point is that you think your god is justified in inflicting eternal punishment for finite crimes committed by a creation that he knew in advance would behave that way.", again, you are wrong. If you believe Hell is a punishment from God you do not have even the slightiest piece of christian theology. Hell is the energies of God experienced as suffering by those who did not purify themselves in this life. If you believe that if you live 30 years of your life in a dungeon with no way out, and you suddenly escape, being in the middle of a field in the month of August, and the burns and sufferings the sun causes you are punishments and torments from the sun to an innocent creature like you, it is not me who is delusional. God doesn't actively burn like the sun, but passively, that is how His essence is, never God wanted for people to suffer. Why doesn't the sun "punish" those peasants who have been working said fields day after day? Because they constantly lived with the sun and are used to it. You do not believe love causes suffering? Do you remember the Prodigal Son? What occured when the son came back? His father was overwhelmed by his son's presence, he felt the most pure love He could have ever feel and his son's presence made him feel the most joyful person on earth. But what caused the prodigal son's presence to his older brother? He started to hate him. The very same "thing" caused two different reactions to the people around it.

"If I refuse to believe in your god, I'm am not responsible for being in Hell any more than I'm responsible for being shot. The analogy seems pretty straight-forward to me, but let's see if you can explain yourself.", again, leave the analogy because it is not good, anymore than it is good for you to believe that if the sun gives you insolation for staying too much time unprepared in its presence it is because it punishes you. Since God is the medicine, are you responsible for being sick if you do not take it?

"What you're positing is a being that will inflict eternal torment on me (in one form or another) if I don't believe in him when I die.", what is the nature of this lie? Where did you get the "if I don't believe in him when I die"? Hell is caused by a sickness of the soul (sin) because it blocks you from perceiving God as He is and turns His presence into suffering for you. If you do not heal yourself of that sickness is entirely your choice. God has disposed absolutely everything for humans to get saved, He sent His son to destroy the realm of death, corruption and sin that has taken over humanity, He founded an ekklesia that is constantly the place of indwelling of the Holy Spirit that constantly sanctifies its members through the sacraments and other acts. Yet here you are, complaining that you will "go to Hell" after you die.