Free Will - Yes/No?

[Excited Penguin]

The world as we know it doesn't allow for the absence of causality, so you do have to conceive of non-causality if you're going to claim otherwise(which you can't, of course).

I agree that "the world as we know it " doesn't allow for the absence of causality but I do not agree that the world doesn't allow for it. We cannot prove that causality doesn't exist.

[...] so you do have to conceive of non-causality if you're going to claim otherwise(which you can't, of course).

I don't need to conceive of it at all, that's my point. Because my own failure of the imagination/inability to conceive is irrelevant to the actual existence of causality. My point is you can't prove causality doesn't exist. No one can but it doesn't matter because it's just obvious it exists.

Humans are incapable of visualizing or conceiving of the world existing without causality, and I can't conceive of any other possible lifeform in the unvierse ever conceiving of its nonexistence either. But again just because I can't conceive of something doesn't mean it's impossible. My own failure of the imagination does not imply that it's not possible.

Causality isn't meant to be proven, it's the one thing everything else is based on, we just take it as a given and build up from there. It's simply self-evident.

I agree.

If that's how he demonstrated it then he was obviously wrong and that's a very bad example of causality to showcase its possible non-existence since we already know that the sun won't come up one day.

No we don't, prove it. The burden of proof is on the person claiming knowledge of something unproven. He absolutely believed in causality and believed the sun will always come up, he was not trying to prove the logical possibility of the sun maybe not coming up, because he didn't have to. It is a logical possibility and that's his point: it will come up but you cannot prove it will, so you can't prove causality.

Go on then. Prove causality. Prove that two events don't just coincide out of some ridiculously improbable massive coincidence rather than actually one causing the other. You can't. You can't prove causality.

But I agree it is self-evident, and I agree we don't need to. There is more evidence for causality than anything else in the world, but it is technically evidential and it isn't proven through logical argument.

Quantum whatever doesn't affect causality, only our understanding of it.

I agree completely.

-Hammy

Knowledge determines existence, not the other way around. Such are the trappings of language, I'm afraid.

You can't prove non-causality because it doesn't make any sense, not because causality is a sure thing. But causality is a sure thing. It is the epitome of certainty. Trying to argue that it isn't is like trying to show the universe doesn't exist. That's a no-no.

Prove that two events don't just coincide out of some ridiculously improbable massive coincidence rather than actually one causing the other. 

This doesn't make one iota of sense, no matter how I try to spin it.