A challenge to Statler Waldorf

[Zen Badger]

Okie dokie, here goes…

There is a very strong case that can be made suggesting atheism is as much a religion as Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism and here it is in a nutshell.
For the purpose of this ‘challenge’ I will be defining atheism more in the western sense which defines atheism as not just the lack of belief in God or gods but also the lack of belief in spirits and the supernatural as well. Since the vast majority of atheists on this board are strict materialists I do not anticipate any objections on this.
So now we must look at two major factors that make atheism a religion.

A. It falls under the legal definition for a religion.
B. It falls under the scientific definition of a religion.

Point A)
Modern atheism is split on this issue, many atheists want to be recognized as a legal religion because it gives them the same rights to expression on public lands as current religions have (an example would be putting up atheistic signs in capitol buildings near other religious symbols such as nativity scenes). On the other side of the divide atheists do not want to be associated with religions because they feel that their anti-religious arguments would crumble if they were part of a religion themselves. Sadly for these people, atheism has been legally deemed a religion on numerous occasions. Two examples would be…

When an inmate was denied the ability to hold an atheistic study group he sued claiming it violated his religious freedoms. The 7th Circuit Court of Appeals in Wisconsin ruled in 2005 that atheism is indeed a religion. The court stated, “ "Atheism is [the inmate's] religion, and the group that he wanted to start was religious in nature even though it expressly rejects a belief in a supreme being.,"

Another death knell came for the “atheism is not a religion” crowd over 40 years prior to the above case when in 1961 the US Supreme Court decided that a religion did in no way require the belief in a supreme being in the Torcaso v. Watkins case. In its list of examples it included both atheism and secular humanism as such religions.
It will be interesting to see if the people who are so quick to point to court decisions concerning creationism and intelligent design will be as excited about these court decisions deeming them legally religious.

I'm unware of the cirmcumstances of the first case but in regards to Torcaso vs Watkins, here is the REAL story, http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source...VzC6Vgvsxg, I think you should research your material a bit better laddie.

Point B)

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The most common test given to determine “religiousmanship” is the “Seven Dimensions of Religion” developed by Anthropologist Ninian Smart. Religions do not need to possess all seven dimensions in order to qualify and the system the most widely used in anthropology and archeology. The seven dimensions are: narrative, experiential, social, ethical, doctrinal, ritual and material. Let’s look how atheism does on the test.

Narrative: This is simply the story told as to why we are here and how we came to be here. Nearly all atheists believe that the universe came about by purely naturalistic means and that man is just another one of the animals. These two concepts are incredibly important to how the atheist views the world. As Dawkins even said,
“Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist.”
Which helps to demonstrate just how closely tied atheism is to evolution and the narrative of how we all got here and what our real purpose is (survival).

Experiential: There are two components to this dimension. The first is what the person experiences before they are a member of the religion that drives them to join. For atheists this is usually a heavy indoctrination into Darwinism. Most atheists can even pinpoint this down to a single moment in life when they affirmed the non-existence of God and the supernatural, almost the mirror image of the Christian’s time of regeneration.

The second component is after they join the religion. Many atheists including Christopher Hitchens and Carl Marx describe their conversion to atheism as a feeling of freedom or liberation. Hitchens even describes Darwin as the great liberator, filling a very similar role as Moses to Jews and Jesus to Christians.

Social: The social aspect of atheism is greatly driven by evangelism within the religion. Dawkins says in his book The God Delusion that, “If this book works as I intend, religious readers who open it will be atheists when they put it down.”
Atheism also has its fair share of apostates just like many other religions. When one time atheistic poster child Antony Flew decided to leave atheism and become a Christian he was viciously attacked by many who used to praise his work when he was still an atheist including Richard Dawkins. If atheism really was just the absence of belief and not a religion then why would any atheists care who was with them? I don’t believe in Santa Claus but I really don’t care if anyone else does or not.

Doctrinal: Doctrines are any beliefs that logically derive from a religion. Secular Humanism directly arose from atheism and is heavily ascribed to by many atheists today. Moral relativism also has very heavy ties to atheism.

Ethics: Atheism has proposed many different ethics systems, almost all are closely tied to Darwinism and all are morally relativistic. Some atheists live by the ethics of other religions and others live by governmental laws which are usually inspired by other religions.

Ritual: Because Atheism is a fairly young religion, it has not developed any major rituals. Although atheists are beginning to recognize Darwin’s birthday every February (some wanting it to even be a federally recognized holiday), so this is quickly becoming a ritual for the atheistic religion.
Material: This includes all the physical things created or greatly regarded by a religion. Many atheists have a very high view for nature. They see earth as having some form of authority over man, and survival is man’s number one purpose. The atheist’s view of nature is also heavily influenced by Darwinism.

That finishes up the Seven Dimensions of a Religion, outlining them for atheism is actually far easier than it is for some of the other religions such as Buddhism and Jainism.

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Let us look at the actual dimensions of religion as defined by Smart and see how atheism compares........

Ritual: Forms and orders of ceremonies (private and/or public) (often regarded as revealed)
What forms or ceremonies does atheism have?

None, and certainly none that are "revealed"

Narrative and Mythic: stories (often regarded as revealed) that work on several levels. Sometimes narratives fit together into a fairly complete and systematic interpretation of the universe and human's place in it.

Atheism again has no stories of creation. As has been stated earlier Evolution is not a part of, or a prerequistite for atheism which predates it by thousands of years. Also Evolution is built on mountains of facts, not "revealed" "knowledge". Which again causes it to fall outside your definition.

Experiential and emotional: dread, guilt, awe, mystery, devotion, liberation, ecstasy, inner peace, bliss (private)
I get all of that from riding my motorbike, does that make motorcycling a religion?

Social and Institutional: belief system is shared and attitudes practiced by a group. Often rules for identifying community membership and participation (public)
Again this can be used to define fans of baseball and soccer as religious in their behaviour, and although some of them certainly act that way would you call either sport a religion?
Ethical and legal: Rules about human behavior (often regarded as revealed from supernatural realm)
Atheism has no rules about human behaviour. Atheists as people certainly do, but they do not derive that from their atheism, unless of cause you can show me the "revealed" source of that information.

Doctrinal and philosophical: systematic formulation of religious teachings in an intellectually coherent form
This one also by definition excludes christianity since the bible is neither intellectual or coherent.

Material: ordinary objects or places that symbolize or manifest the sacred or supernatural

Please,please,please show me an atheist church that "symbolises the sacred or supernatural"
And although a requirement for a god is not directly stated, five of the seven dimensions have either "revealed","supernatural" or "religious" as part of their stated requirements so atheism automatically falls outside of their realm.

Footnotes:
Many atheists do not feel they belong to a religion, however this is completely irrelevant as to whether they really do or not

By whose definition? Yours? I hardly think anyone here takes THAT seriously.

- Christianity would still be a religion even if Jesus said it was not one.

You would argue with your god?!?!?!?

BLASPHEMER!!!!!

Many atheists try and make the argument that atheism is not a positive belief but rather the absence of belief. However the absence of belief would also necessarily imply absence of knowledge about a certain subject and not many atheists would say they do not know there is no God. This new definition of atheism is actually a revisionist’s definition. The traditional definition of atheism is summed up by the Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy as follows,
““Atheism is the position that affirms the non-existence of God. It proposes positive belief rather than mere suspension of disbelief.”

Atheism(despite your jingosim) is still merely an absence of belief in a god or gods.

Anti-theism on the other hand is much more positive since it believes that the world would be a much better much place if religion faded away completely.And will work to that end.
And yes, I am very much an anti-theist.

Atheism was the offical state religion of the former Soviet Unition.

So Fucking What?