(July 7, 2016 at 12:27 pm)Constable Dorfl Wrote:(July 7, 2016 at 9:36 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: What is your evidence that they have been significantly doctored? There are some changes, but my understanding is that these do not effect doctrine. Also, because of the abundance of manuscripts from a across a geographical divide, we can often track many changes to a particular time and place (sometimes to a particular scribe). And most of the discrepancies are insignificant, anyway.
I don't find that your definition you are using for "believe" to be all that common. Would it be accurate to say, that you do not believe in gravity? Would you feel the need to clarify what is meant if so?
The oldest extant bibles stop at Mark 16:8. Everything after is 4th century insertions. Then you've got all the translations into Latin and later into the various vernaculars. Hence KJV is much different is much altered from Vaticanus (despite its use of English that was archaic by its writing). Plus we've got the well documented fact that for hundreds of years gospels deemed acrocryphal were systematically destroyed by church authorities, including as far as we can ascertain the earliest forms of what became the canonical gospels.
I agree, about the long ending of Mark (and the majority of my Bibles have a note concerning such). However I think that you and I have a different understanding of what is meant by significantly doctored. I have spoken online with some Christians who are deriving doctrine from this portion of text, but they are mostly late in theological origin, and do not reflect traditional orthodoxy or most Christian doctrine which is well substantiated by the manuscripts. I would agree, that a translation is only as good as it reflects the original. In some cases, I think that an early translation strengthens the manuscript evidence, because it gives a separate line to follow. I do agree, that it is unfortunate (as well as deplorable), that at times some church authorities destroyed other documents. Although I also am somewhat understanding, in that they didn't want them to be confused with the history that was handed down from the apostles. I would be interested in seeing your reasons for why you say, that the Church destroyed the earliest canonical gospels though.