On Moral Authorities

[The Grand Nudger]

1. First, right and wrong are not made, for right and wrong are based in being with God or being against God, and God obviously is not made, instead He is the maker.

What on earth do you mean right and wrong are not made, you told me earlier, in reference to moral rules, that god created everything objective?  So what did god make, again?  

Not the moral rules, after all, apparently...objective or otherwise.

Second, to change what is right and wrong is not an ability, but an imperfection, for unchanging is more perfect than what is changing.

It's an inability of god, as you describe it, regardless of whether or not changing it would be imperfection, this is an objection of convenience.  

So, sexual abuse being wrong is due to being against God Whom is Love, for what His Will and Himself are just one, and He wills what is good, and willing the good is love (and so we know that God wills Himself), and sexual abuse is obviously not love, for sexual abuse is not willing the good, for sexual abuse is against freedom of the abused, and being free is the nature of man, and the nature of man is from God.

If there were no god, all of those statements above about why sexual abuse is wrong would still be equally true, to you, I assume?  

2. Thank you for your explanation. Let's see. I'll show here what I have understood from your explanation and please let me know if I have understood it correctly.


What you are trying to say here is that there's already objective moral standard and God's opinion is just that, and so God's opinion is not really objective but also subjective.

That's not what -I'm- trying to say, lol, no.  

However, how do we know that there's already moral standard apart from God? It seems to me that that is the starting point of your objection that I am not consistent regarding my subjective and objective labeling of terms here.

That has nothing to do with why you were inconsistent.  It's english, and not god...that I'm discussing in wondering why you would use certain words as you do, lol.

On the other hand, I know that what is right is one with God, for God is the end of man whom can know and love the truth and the good respectively, and the true end is what is right, just as the end of the eye is seeing, so what is right for the eye is to see.

You believe, you don't know.  Which is fine, btw, but it helps to be accurate.  

Now, God is objective, and if God and what is right are one, then moral standard is indeed objective and so apart from God, there cannot be a moral standard. Hence, the problem for atheist asking for just and moral action which is due to ending up imposing their own opinion, for again, if there is no God, then there is no objective morality, and hence only subjective morality and therefore just an opinion.

You told me, just above, that sexual abuse was an affront to freedom, and affront mans nature, that it was against love, that it was not..therefore, good.  Do these statements become any less objective than you thought they were before, just because the word god is omitted?  These are, ofc, just some of the things "the atheist" might say regarding the moral status of sexual abuse.  Are these, then, objective human opinions?  I certainly think they are, even though I may not refer to -exactly- what you've referred to. They seem to be moral facts of the matter without any need of reference to a god.

"That's like...just your opinion, man".....? Ofc it isn't. I neither made sexual abuse wrong, nor could I make it right. It may have to do with my nature, or the nature of sexual abuse, it may have to do with the nature of freedom or of love, in short, every argument you offered for "god" above applies equally to -me- and my opinion on the matter. That it's just my opinion is yet another contradictory objection of convenience.

Therefore, it seems to me that your objection to my arguments here stems from the proposition that what is right and what is God are separate which in turn begs the question how to we know that there is an objective moral standards apart from God.

My objection to your argument actually stemmed from your poor grasp of english and atrocious word use choices.

Well, do you have an answer for that which will end the question begging which we know a kind of fallacy?

Firstly, that's not actually what question begging means...lol..secondly,if it were, you've already explained it up above for me....lol?

In summary, you're attempting to evade the problems with your previous arguments by picking some other fight. Opining that there cannot be morality, as you conceptualize it, apart from god. Not only is this wrong, I don;t know why -you- would believe it, since you're more than capable of offering a description of it...and did so in the very post in which you objected to it as question begging.