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Atheism is irrational.
RE: Atheism is irrational.
(December 7, 2016 at 12:22 pm)Asmodee Wrote:
(December 7, 2016 at 10:47 am)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Your post verges on deceptive editing since each phrase refers to completely different issues. Be that as it may, the key distinction is that miracles affect the external environment. Theophany falls into the same category as dreams, visions, epiphanies, and even peak experiences, all of which are subjective internal experiences.
No, it doesn't.  I quoted the part where you accused atheists of playing with semantics followed by the part I perceived as you playing with semantics.  I was not editing or censoring you, merely pointing out the parts to which I was responding.  You have to admit, there is a bit of irony there.
That's why I said it was on the verge. There is no irony if I did not engage in deceptive wordplay. With respect to the definition of atheism, I have conceded that "simple disbelief" seems to have become a contemporary usage; however, I feel the strong insistence, that the definition be strictly limited to exclude equally valid senses and specifically those with negative connotations, betrays a censorious intent by some vocal atheists to avoid owning up to their obvious incredulity.

In the same way, the broadest sense of the word 'miracle' as any kind of divine intervention could, I suppose could include an uncanny dream. To my mind, that expansive sense didn't apply in the context of the thread. Instead, the discussion revolved around apparent violations of the natural order. I have already explained my position such inexplicable events and the criteria for excepting them as actual divine interventions.

No such criteria would apply to an epiphany, like Paul's encounter with the risen Christ. One defining feature of an epiphany is the certainty it engenders in the person who had the experience. People who have them do not question whether or not they had a divine encounter; they know with absolute certainty that they have. The OP asks if I, or any other believer, upon going back in time and observing purported miraculous events would change our minds about the veracity of those events. The question of the OP only applies to events open to dispute. With respect to an epiphany, there would not even the possibility of doubt.

The real question is whether I could be justified in accepting the veracity of another's epiphany. That could only ever be a personal judgment about the character of the person making the claim and witnessing the affect on their life. To my mind that entails a whole 'nother set of criteria and not really worth either the believer or the skeptic's time to debate. The gulf is too great.
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Messages In This Thread
Atheism is irrational. - by theologian - November 20, 2016 at 11:36 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Silver - November 20, 2016 at 11:38 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by AceBoogie - December 5, 2016 at 1:45 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Angrboda - November 20, 2016 at 11:53 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Thumpalumpacus - November 20, 2016 at 11:56 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 21, 2016 at 12:01 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Cyberman - November 21, 2016 at 12:02 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Ravenshire - November 21, 2016 at 2:30 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by TheoneandonlytrueGod - December 6, 2016 at 10:56 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Mister Agenda - December 7, 2016 at 10:57 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - December 7, 2016 at 12:29 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by FallentoReason - November 21, 2016 at 12:03 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Astreja - November 21, 2016 at 12:08 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Primordial Bisque - November 21, 2016 at 12:17 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Alex K - November 21, 2016 at 12:32 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 21, 2016 at 12:35 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Primordial Bisque - November 21, 2016 at 12:46 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 21, 2016 at 1:11 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Minimalist - November 21, 2016 at 12:42 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Edwardo Piet - November 21, 2016 at 12:48 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by theologian - November 21, 2016 at 1:17 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Silver - November 21, 2016 at 1:20 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Astreja - November 21, 2016 at 1:32 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Ravenshire - November 21, 2016 at 2:34 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Thumpalumpacus - November 21, 2016 at 4:48 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Cyberman - November 21, 2016 at 2:13 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Primordial Bisque - November 21, 2016 at 4:15 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2016 at 5:41 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Primordial Bisque - November 21, 2016 at 7:58 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Pat Mustard - November 22, 2016 at 5:34 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Pat Mustard - November 22, 2016 at 5:28 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Angrboda - November 21, 2016 at 6:32 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - November 21, 2016 at 1:45 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Silver - November 21, 2016 at 1:47 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 21, 2016 at 1:59 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by theologian - November 21, 2016 at 2:01 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Silver - November 21, 2016 at 2:03 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Astreja - November 21, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Excited Penguin - November 21, 2016 at 12:35 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Astreja - November 21, 2016 at 2:15 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 21, 2016 at 2:19 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Jesster - November 21, 2016 at 2:31 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by I_am_not_mafia - November 21, 2016 at 3:49 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Bob Kelso - November 21, 2016 at 4:06 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - November 21, 2016 at 5:06 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by chimp3 - November 21, 2016 at 6:22 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Thumpalumpacus - November 21, 2016 at 6:35 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by chimp3 - November 21, 2016 at 6:39 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Faith No More - November 21, 2016 at 7:17 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Tonus - November 21, 2016 at 1:18 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by brewer - November 21, 2016 at 7:41 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Cato - November 21, 2016 at 7:45 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Gawdzilla Sama - November 21, 2016 at 9:16 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 21, 2016 at 10:17 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by 8BitAtheist - November 21, 2016 at 10:19 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Shell B - November 21, 2016 at 10:23 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by houseofcantor - November 22, 2016 at 8:01 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by zebo-the-fat - November 21, 2016 at 11:22 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - November 21, 2016 at 11:26 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Thumpalumpacus - November 21, 2016 at 1:40 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Ravenshire - November 21, 2016 at 5:58 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Opoponax - November 21, 2016 at 12:45 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - November 21, 2016 at 1:21 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Minimalist - November 22, 2016 at 4:05 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Mister Agenda - November 21, 2016 at 1:43 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Excited Penguin - November 21, 2016 at 1:52 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Cyberman - November 21, 2016 at 4:23 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Fake Messiah - November 21, 2016 at 4:24 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 21, 2016 at 4:52 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by The Joker - November 21, 2016 at 5:26 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 21, 2016 at 8:16 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 22, 2016 at 4:19 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 22, 2016 at 7:33 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Tonus - November 22, 2016 at 7:53 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - November 22, 2016 at 7:41 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 22, 2016 at 7:55 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Tonus - November 22, 2016 at 10:01 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 22, 2016 at 3:46 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Simon Moon - November 22, 2016 at 4:02 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 22, 2016 at 4:10 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by LastPoet - November 22, 2016 at 4:13 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - November 22, 2016 at 4:14 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Simon Moon - November 22, 2016 at 4:24 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 22, 2016 at 5:24 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Pat Mustard - November 23, 2016 at 6:43 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Pat Mustard - November 23, 2016 at 6:38 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Thumpalumpacus - November 23, 2016 at 11:58 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 22, 2016 at 8:00 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by chimp3 - November 22, 2016 at 8:07 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by houseofcantor - November 22, 2016 at 8:14 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Faith No More - November 22, 2016 at 11:36 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - November 22, 2016 at 8:09 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Excited Penguin - November 22, 2016 at 8:14 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by chimp3 - November 22, 2016 at 8:23 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Pat Mustard - November 22, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Cyberman - November 22, 2016 at 4:18 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Mister Agenda - November 22, 2016 at 4:29 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Edwardo Piet - November 22, 2016 at 6:28 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Jesster - November 22, 2016 at 6:34 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Edwardo Piet - November 23, 2016 at 5:12 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Gemini - November 23, 2016 at 5:17 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Tonus - November 23, 2016 at 6:09 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 24, 2016 at 2:21 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by robvalue - November 23, 2016 at 8:07 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 23, 2016 at 11:37 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Astreja - November 23, 2016 at 11:56 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Thumpalumpacus - November 23, 2016 at 12:46 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 23, 2016 at 1:21 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Mister Agenda - November 23, 2016 at 1:39 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by downbeatplumb - November 23, 2016 at 2:43 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Edwardo Piet - November 23, 2016 at 5:13 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Thumpalumpacus - November 23, 2016 at 5:57 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 23, 2016 at 7:30 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - November 24, 2016 at 2:55 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 28, 2016 at 10:49 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Pat Mustard - November 24, 2016 at 5:45 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Edwardo Piet - November 23, 2016 at 5:19 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Asmodee - November 30, 2016 at 1:18 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 30, 2016 at 4:02 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Asmodee - November 30, 2016 at 6:50 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - November 30, 2016 at 7:05 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Asmodee - December 2, 2016 at 12:24 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Ravenshire - December 7, 2016 at 3:10 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Whateverist - December 3, 2016 at 11:40 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - December 2, 2016 at 1:55 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Asmodee - December 5, 2016 at 10:54 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2016 at 10:47 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Asmodee - December 7, 2016 at 12:22 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2016 at 1:39 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Asmodee - December 9, 2016 at 1:04 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - December 14, 2016 at 6:08 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Asmodee - December 15, 2016 at 4:56 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Pat Mustard - December 7, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Fireball - December 7, 2016 at 11:11 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by downbeatplumb - December 3, 2016 at 11:21 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Tonus - December 3, 2016 at 11:32 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by chimp3 - December 3, 2016 at 3:07 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by dyresand - December 5, 2016 at 2:36 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Cyberman - December 7, 2016 at 8:58 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by The Grand Nudger - December 7, 2016 at 2:51 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Simon Moon - December 7, 2016 at 4:04 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2016 at 4:14 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Simon Moon - December 7, 2016 at 4:18 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Neo-Scholastic - December 7, 2016 at 4:45 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Tonus - December 7, 2016 at 5:02 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Simon Moon - December 7, 2016 at 5:29 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by The Grand Nudger - December 7, 2016 at 4:15 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by The Grand Nudger - December 7, 2016 at 4:24 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by The Grand Nudger - December 7, 2016 at 4:47 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Cecelia - December 7, 2016 at 6:12 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by Simon Moon - December 7, 2016 at 7:16 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by maestroanth - December 10, 2016 at 5:00 am
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by comet - December 13, 2016 at 8:32 pm
RE: Atheism is irrational. - by comet - December 14, 2016 at 9:04 pm

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