RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 11:39 am
(This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 11:44 am by Catholic_Lady.)
(December 15, 2016 at 11:24 am)mh.brewer Wrote:(December 15, 2016 at 10:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.
If god has already seen it happen, prior to it happening, how can you do anything different when that time comes?
The play has been written prior to your arrival, you can only act the part given to you.
I think you're thinking of it in terms of Him traveling back and forth in time and whatever He sees when He "travels" to the future is how things are set in stone to be regardless of what might change. Such is not the case. He knows what happens because He exists in a dimension outside of time, meaning He is already seeing the entire span of time and all the actions we choose to take all at once.
(December 15, 2016 at 11:24 am)pool the great Wrote:(December 15, 2016 at 11:15 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: No, that is not what I am saying.
I think I know exactly what you mean. You mean to say God exist as an outside, independent viewer that sees everything before and ahead of time.
Well consider this scenario:
* God tells me I'll have steak for breakfast.
* I have eggs for breakfast.
There are three explanations:
1) God already knew I will have eggs. However in this case it would imply God lied to me, which isn't possible since he is exempt from sin.
2) God didn't know what would happen. This would imply God is not aware of everything, which again contradicts the property of God.
3) God knew what would happen but we exercised our free will and did what we wanted regardless, which deny the notion of a predetermined fate and takes us back to scenario 2.
4. God knew that He would come and tell you that you were going to have steak and that you would choose to have eggs instead.
(December 15, 2016 at 11:19 am)RozKek Wrote:(December 15, 2016 at 6:18 am)RozKek Wrote: Even this isn't coherent, it's the exact same situation except that god is assumed to be in another dimension which in no way adds value to the argument. I will simplify this.
Please do not go off track with your answer:
God is all powerful, he can see the future. He sees that you're going to go to hell. Can you go to heaven?
(December 15, 2016 at 10:50 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not sure what it is about this that is so hard to understand. Not sure what else to say without repeating myself.
Can you answer the question I asked earlier?
God is all powerful, he can see the future. He sees that you're going to go to hell. Can you go to heaven?
Of course I can go to Heaven. But if He saw that I went to Hell, that means I went to Hell.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
-walsh