(December 19, 2016 at 10:06 am)Tonus Wrote: That's a bit convoluted for me. I can't understand how a God who can always act unilaterally puts us in positions to suffer or rejoice instead of creating a scenario where we did not suffer. I cannot accept that anyone but God is to blame for what happens when things go wrong in a world, universe, and reality that he created. [1]
We can go with the standard dictionary definitions. [2]
I get what you're saying. Although it should have been an expectation, given the prophecies that were written and his own prediction to his followers, those who were watching from afar (so to speak) would have simply seen a roving preacher who antagonized the wrong guys. But from the perspective of someone reading the Bible much later, he triumphed. However, the reason that he suffered was because his perfect human form was in a world that went off the rails... a fate he did not prevent. [3]
If I thought it was real, I would be confused by this. Why would he choose to suffer? Indeed, why go through any of it? So much of this could have been avoided if God had uttered three words: "I forgive you." [4] Imagine the level of mercy that this would reveal, suspending judgment and giving us a chance to do things right without the unfair shackles of imperfection! [5]
Now imagine how magnanimous he would be if he forgave them unconditionally? [6]
That's even scarier to me. God creates the world and two humans and then creates the conditions under which they can fail, with the stipulation that their failure will resonate through all of humanity for thousands of years to come. And there is nothing we can do to fix that because we are unable to avoid sinning even if we wished that it were not so. [7] And God is under no obligation to change this scenario. He could send us all packing to hell if he so wished. [8]
This is where I would be most concerned about knowing for sure that God was truly compassionate and merciful. Because that would be the only hope I had. It would not matter that he was right or wrong, that he was at fault or blameless. All that matters is what he decides to do, because no one can prevent him from acting. Under those circumstances, anything short of clear and direct action should make us very, very nervous. The long and convoluted plan to offer us salvation under certain conditions should frighten us because we know that this means that God does not want everyone to be saved, or he would simply save everyone. [9]
If he wrote the rules and put all of the pieces on the board, those are really the same thing, aren't they? And I cannot accept blame for cursing myself. If two people conspired to turn against God six thousand years ago, I didn't have anything to do with that. But their curse lives on in me and I am expected to accept this because the guy who made the rules holds all of the cards and this is what he decided to go with. My options are to blame myself and beg for mercy or face an eternity of suffering. That's not mercy, that's extortion. [10]
My goal in any discussion here is to learn what people believe and why they believe it. The discussion is the reward (or the agony, if I'm engaging Little Rik). I'm glad for anyone like you who prefers to express his beliefs plainly and openly. It's not always easy in a forum like this and some folks get discouraged but, in the end, it's just a discussion. Thanks. [11]
1) Fair enough. No need for us to just keep repeating ourselves.
2) Compassion: feeling sorrow for another's misfortune. Mercy: compassionate action toward another unfortunate person.
3) Fair enough.
4) That is exactly what the whole thing means! =)
5) This is almost exactly what the sacrament of confession does. His judgment is suspended, your failures are forgiven, you are given divine power to act (i.e. grace) and you get another chance to do things right. No matter how many times you mess up, he will forgive it and give you a chance to try again.
6) He does forgive it unconditionally. Your asking for forgiveness is already the fruit of his mercy. You can't even ask for forgiveness unless he restores you to that action.
7) Who says we can't avoid sinning?
8) If he wanted, god could have indeed condemned us all to hell. But god doesn't want that. He's never wanted that because it doesn't accord with how he's determined to be toward his creation (i.e. merciful).
9) Salvation is not given under certain conditions. He just saves you, and you get to participate in your own salvation. It is not, "If you do x, y, and z, then god will save you." That is what Paul fought so hard against. Rather, it is "God has come to save you, throw a party, live in reality of that new relationship, and let's try and make this the biggest party ever. Invite everyone you can. Jesus will bring the drinks".
10) Who says you have to beg for mercy? God's throwing that stuff around like its Mardi Gras. He knows you need it. Your sins don't bother him. All he wants is you, and he wants to restore you, and he wants you to participate in your own restoration.
11) I understand, and I appreciate the kind words!
