(December 22, 2016 at 11:43 am)SteveII Wrote:(December 22, 2016 at 11:11 am)operator Wrote: Let's remember that an all-knowing creator creating the future before it occurs to us as humans is quite different than a human time traveling and have "precognition." An all-knowing, all-powerful creator created me and knew I would make this thread before I made it. That eliminates my free will in the matter and means that every single "choice" I make is actually not a choice at all, but actually part of god's plan.
So either fate is real.
Or free will is.
Which one is it?
It's very simple and we need not be bogged down by hypothetical scenarios or silly semantic debates. Which one is it, theists? Fate or free will? Because either your god is all powerful, or he is not.
I appreciate the enthusiasm in the subject that everyone has displayed but we're really getting far off track here. It's a simple contradiction that many of you are simply failing to see and quite honestly I'm not sure what's so difficult about it. Either god created the future, or he didn't. He either knows what you're going to do, or he doesn't.
Fate?
Or free will?
You ignored the Molinism post I wrote which brings in a third option to your question. The future has not happened yet--even for God. No contradiction.
Interesting. I'll check it out I'll admit I have not yet read every single post in the thread.
But a god that does not know the future is clearly not all-knowing. A god that does not know the future surely must operate within the confines of time in the same way humans do (in the sense that we also cannot see the future because it has not yet happened)... and if god is confined by the limits that time imposes on us all then surely god is not all-powerful.
How did god create the universe if god is limited by time itself? Did god not create time?
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
