RE: Is atheism a scientific perspective?
December 30, 2016 at 2:24 pm
(This post was last modified: December 30, 2016 at 2:25 pm by AAA.)
(December 29, 2016 at 2:48 pm)Asmodee Wrote:(December 28, 2016 at 4:18 pm)AAA Wrote: Do you think that the reason that more educated people tend to be atheists is because the materialistic worldview is the only view taught in schools? More educated = more exposure to materialistic perspective= less religious.That first paragraph there is utterly and completely ignorant. I don't mean to offend, but look up the definition for the word "materialistic" and you'll see what I mean. Materialism is about possessions, having them, coveting them. That is not what's taught in science class. Science is the study of the natural universe, not the collection of Beanie Babies.
I also resent the assertion that it is the Christians who are trying to deceive. Did you read the opening question? It is the atheists who have been successful in promoting their worldview as the position of science. I have not heard anyone yet say that atheism and science are directly related, yet that is exactly what many atheists are doing. Also, don't tell me that Christianity is synonymous with "bad science". Young Earth creationism is bad science because they must fit all the evidence into a predetermined worldview, but materialism is guilty of the same charge. Other christian scientists have made highly significant contributions of the world of science.
You are trying to convey the idea that Christians are the ones who are more susceptible to delusion, deception, and immorality, but in you hostility you have made a strong case that you are the one who has been overcome by all three. Sorry, that was a bit harsh, but your comment seemed to be basically implying that Christians are destroyers of reason.
Yes, I did read the opening question and I answered it thoroughly. You can resent the assertion that Christians are trying to deceive all you want, it's still true and I can give you sever real-world examples if you like. I can give you examples in Jehovah's Witness printed materials. I can give you examples in anti-evolution arguments. I can give you examples in court cases about religion in schools. I have actual reasons for my believe that Christians are generally deceptive when speaking to me about their beliefs. As I stated multiple times, though, I don not think they are intentionally deceptive.
As for the relationship between atheism and science, I already addressed that very thoroughly. And yes, Christianity IS synonymous with "bad science". Christians can do good science. Christians can and do contribute to science. But whenever CHRISTIANITY (NOT "Christians") tries to "contribute" to science it is ALWAYS junk science intended to push their beliefs.
Materialism again, huh? I assume you're familiar with the meme, "You keep saying that word. I don't think it means what you think it means." Snookie pushes "a materialistic world view". Science pushes "reality". To be materialistic is to desire to collect material possessions. That is not being pushed in schools, by atheists or by scientists. I don't know what word you're going for there, but if that's actually the word you intend to use then you have a very warped view of reality.
I never said Christians were more susceptible to immorality, nor did I ever claim they were "more susceptible" to deception. Delusion, of course I think they're more susceptible to that. I'm an atheist.
There was no hostility in my response. I responded directly to the OP with my opinion on the question at hand. I tried to keep it civil, I made no intentional insults and, looking over it again, it reads like a dry opinion piece without emotion interjected. It was a recitation of facts as I see them, not an assault. If you don't want to hear what I have to say on a subject then don't ask the questions. If you like I can easily give you a very detailed breakdown of a half dozen or so "deceptions" made by Christians off the top of my head. As I pointed out repeatedly, Jehovah's Witnesses and the Discovery Institute are the biggest perpetrators of these deceptions that I have had experience with. Though I do associate deception with Christianity in general, these two sources are the ones I look at "extra hard".
But if you think I was being unfair, let me give you one example of what I'm talking about, directly from you.
Quote:Do you think that the reason that more educated people tend to be atheists is because the materialistic worldview is the only view taught in schools?The deception here? That a "materialistic worldview" is somehow related to science, which is taught in schools, which means a materialistic worldview is taught in schools because of science. But "materialism" is not what your usage of the word suggests it is. Do I think you are purposely trying to pull the wool over my eyes? Of course not. Why did you use that word, and use it so wrong? Because "materialistic" sounds bad. In our heads it relates to being greedy and shallow, because, by the correct usage of the word, that's what it is. The word invokes a negative image in our heads, and you certainly wanted to invoke a negative image when talking about "not your beliefs" being taught in schools. You used that word, not because you, personally, were trying to deceive me, but because you, yourself, were deceived into thinking that the word "materialistic", a word which invokes bad associations in our heads, was the right word to use to describe "the study of the natural (or "material") world".
THIS is what I'm talking about. Not that you're some jackass who wants to trick me into following something you know to be false, or whatever you thought I meant. I have to check everything you say to find out what words you're misusing. I have to think about everything you say to find out what concepts you're abusing. Not because you're inherently deceitful, as you seem to have taken it, but (and I'm sorry, but it's true) because you're inherently ignorant of basic scientific understanding. If you were not then you would not have thought that the word "materialistic" IN ANY WAY describes ANYTHING even REMOTELY related to "science". I have to double-check even your most basic understanding of science, right down to the usage of any word not used in our ordinary, daily lives. And I don't mean that to insult you. Unlike you, I don't take what you say personally. Our opinions and viewpoints differ, and I'm really okay with that. I don't mind that you believe something different then me. I only care when Christians try to push their beliefs on my kids, which is YET ANOTHER reason I see Christians as deceitful. More than one Christian family has tried to "sneak" Christianity to my children behind my back, specifically and purposefully without me knowing. Is that not the very definition of "deceitful"?
I have reasons for believing the things that I believe. I'm not just being a dick about it. And you have reasons for believing the things you believe. The only difference is that mine are good reasons...
Look up scientific materialism:
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are results of material interactions. Materialism is closely related to physicalism, the view that all that exists is ultimately physical.
That's how I was using the word, and it was used correctly. That takes care of about 99/100 ths of your reply.
Also, I don't disagree with the fact that some Christians are trying to deceive, but the idea that Christians can't be good scientists is ridiculous. Also, I disagree with your assertion that I'm inherently ignorant of basic scientific understanding.
(December 30, 2016 at 2:05 pm)LastPoet Wrote: Hmmm links to those studies?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9973609
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8895455
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mar...45acf7.pdf