A discussion with tack

[tackattack]

I apologize for the length in time for a response. I tried typing a response immediately after twice and the computer jacked up upon submition, then it got lost in the moderator shuffle. No Excuses and I appreciate your PM on this.
@Ryft, you can feel free to jump in anytime as this is not a debate and there has been little if anything I have disagreed with you on theologically.

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To the other guys: you may not be interested in this discussion. It's a discussion I & tackattack continue from other thread to this thread.

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1-That plenty and covers the basis. If you’re interested [url= http://www.apostolic-churches.net/bible/....html]here are more[/url]
All of them are spoken from within this universe. To say there is nothing God can’t do, would suffice. It would be picked apart for the absolutist terminology because when someone from within this universe typically says the phrase above they’re actually saying there is nothing God can’t do that is possible within this universe. Therefore I simply tried to explain and simplify by saying omnipotence is about the power to do anything that is logically possible to do. If you want to use the Gnostic definition and be tautological and define omnipotent as power to do anything, even the impossible, then I would have to say God would not fit that definition.

That thing with "within this universe" sounds a bit odd, and very unclear. And it doesn't sound to be similar to "anything that is logically possible to do".

I'll say my view on 'omnipotence'. First off, it refers to God's power (i.e. amount of power, perhaps that is more suggestive), not by illogical phrases and phrases you use with the word "can". So "can God cease being wise?", "can God forget?", "can God lie?", "can God be evil?", "can God cease being God" have nothing to do with the amount of power God has. Even if God couldn't be evil "because of His nature", that would not be against God's power (by the way, God's nature to be good and not evil... I don't find anywhere in the bible to be written so). It's the same with a man who can't torture a baby: the fact that he cannot torture the baby does not make him less powerful/mighty.

Also the question "can God create a being more powerful than Himself?" appears to be a logical contradiction. But because "all" the power belongs to God, there can logically be no power greater than the power of God.

Also the question: "can God create a squared circle?" - a "squared circle" is not a thing, it's only a combination of words that results in something meaningless/stupid/illogical. If the 'amount' of power that belongs to God is ultimate, then the answer "no" does not contradict His attribute "Almighty".

OK, now some verses that talk about 'omnipotence':
Gen 17.1 - the word "Almighty" - from hebrew, as I found - can mean "Almighty" or "most powerful" (and the word in hebrew derives from a word meaning "powerful").

As about phrases with "all", you will find very many verses in both the Old Testament and the New, where you will notice that it does not mean "absolutely each individual", one example could be Exodus 9.25 versus 10.12 (and there are very many verses like this throughout the bible). I don't know how exactly this word in both hebrew and greek can be translated properly in english, in some certain cases it may be "as a whole" or something like that.

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2-Then the next step would be to determine what you would qualify as evidence of God/gods interacting with you. Answer?

I assume you mean here, not at the 'judgment day' of God/the gods. Well, if God or some gods would appear to me (and not me alone, but perhaps something like 100 persons or more) and say that they are the true gods (or He is the true God), and also give good arguments why we should believe them that they are the true gods, or that He is the true only God, and would give me (or give us) the power to do supernatural things for a period of time (e.g. 10 days) and therefore both see for myself, and also have evidence from others that I haven't lost my sanity, then yes, that would be an evidence, and I would believe those gods (or, that God).

Or, did you mean something else?

2a- My position on Hell is fairly standard. Hell as is commonly used is the lake of fire (Revelation 20:9-15) at the day of judgment. That coupled with verses like 2 Thessalonians 1:9, Matthew 10:28 and tons of others Biblically support that in the second death your soul is destroyed, not suffering eternally. That’s not to say you might or might not suffer in Ghenna or Hades, and nowhere does it say how long it takes to destroy the soul. My opinion is that the doctrine of the eternalness of the soul is a Platonic influence and corrupts proper exegesis of scripture in its entirety.

Actually, 2 Thessalonians seem to specify an eternal [time of] ruin/death. It seems to be different than "destroyed for good" or something like that.
And how do you explain Mark 9.43-44 and Matthew 25.41,46; 13.40-42, Revelation 14.9-11, 20.10?

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3-Yes I am non-denominational. That means I’m opposed to the division of the Church (as the body of Christ in the Bible) along dogmatic lines. I lean on the only church I know, the church of experience and scripture.

What exactly is that church? is it a definition invented by you or the 'definition' is from the bible?

3a-I say God & Satan can speak in our minds. You would have to determine first if it was actual or illusory communication. Then scripturally and spiritually determine its origins. Then decide whether you’ll listen to it or not.

ok,
first: is there a biblical support for God & Satan speaking in our minds?
then, how would you determine if it was actual or illusory communication?
then, how exactly would you determine its origins?

3b-I don’t think I ever listed a specific case. But I would say, as the morally superior standard, if you followed all of 3a and God commanded an unjustifiable action deemed immoral, than he would be immoral and not God. I’ve yet to see an instance of this in the Bible.

Perhaps that discussion had derived to something else in the meantime.
In your discussion (you & Welsh cake) it was so:

3- Humanity advocated slavery and the murdering of first-born infants, and used God as an excuse. The Bible is clear on doing things for the gain of wealth in this world and unjust murder and simply declaring it God’s will, without the sacrament of confirmation, is not only flagrantly selfish and un Christian, but fanaticism at it’s worst.

Yes that's what happens in the real-world for the various atrocities stated, in the Bible however, it is Yahweh that is speaking in the first-person, he is giving the orders and commandments to his chosen people to murder and/or enslave other peoples and races.

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5a- Hell- See 2a. Yes there’s a Hades, Ghenna, Hell , Valley of Hinnom, Sheol,

If you insist that Hades and Sheol are actually hell, then show me a place in the bible where it is suggested something like that. The places where I see sheol & hades, they quite support my theory - the 'spiritual' place where dead people's souls go.

Me personally, I am with Thomas Aquinas on this reward or punishment should not precede the judgment. I think we cease to be until the second coming at death and it’s like our souls are sleeping there.

With this occasion, how do you understand Luke 16.22-23? (notice that the judgment day had not arrived there yet: there were his relatives on earth).

5b- Heaven- There’s 3 Heaven the scripture talks about. Heaven = sky, Heaven = universe, Heaven =
Where God sits.

The last is pretty vague, if we consider God to be omnipresent. And here is where my understanding fits better: the 'spiritual' realm.

Typically in the vernacular almost everyone is speaking only of the third instance. Also called "kingdom of heaven" or "kingdom of God" as you stated.

ok, if there is a heaven, then why is there also a kingdom of heaven? isn't there a contradiction to say that "X = something of X"?
With this occasion, perhaps you can find me a place in the Bible where "heaven" (alone) refers to the place where 'good' people go after they die (i.e. the modern "heaven").

5c- As far as God in Hell, it’s logically impossible. God has no need to judge himself, so why would he have need to send himself to destruction. If Heaven is the kingdom or oneness with God, then Hell would be eternal absence of God… logically exclusive.

If you insist that Sheol = hell, this should be a bit tricky for you:

If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Note that the hebrew word for "hell" in the above verse is the hebrew "Sheol" (and it is a... mistranslation... at least until you can prove me otherwise).

Anyway, the fact is that if God is omnipresent, it doesn't mean that it hurts Him if His presence is not ended by hell. After all, hell must have been His creation, so how could His creation harm/destroy Him? Why would God create something that is able to harm/destroy Him? (if that's even possible)

As about "If Heaven is the kingdom or oneness with God, then Hell would be eternal absence of God… logically exclusive."
If heaven is 'everlasting union with God' then hell must rather be 'eternal disunion with God' (where man is left in oblivion by God).

Also, I think you should explain more about "oneness" with God and how that is based on the bible.

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6a- Here we can discuss whether God does evil. It’ll be short, God can do evil, but it’s counter to his nature (good) and can any of us mortals envision doing anything outside our very nature (if we knew it in its entirety).

Please show me from the Bible where you see that God's "goodness" is His "nature" (which seems to confine Him to be in a certain way or something).

7- Well first we need to establish a definition of a soul. I’m not really interested in a 2000 year old definition, just yours. I’ve stated mine, we can go with that or you could state one and we could come to a consensus. I’ve listed several times and places on this site that to my definitions the existence of the soul can be demonstrated, if necessary I’ll rehash those. Definition first, though.

Well, the definition you gave (i.e. "A soul is the hypothetical immaterial essence, animating principle, or actuating cause of an individual life") seems good enough. As I cannot 'touch' souls and cannot study souls myself to see how and what exactly they must be, I don't know if I can be certain on a definition or something. For instance, I cannot imagine "immaterial essence", but because I don't know all secrets of the universe, I'll consider it as a possible thing.

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1) Several others have already answered this point. From the human perspective within this universe, there is no power God can not exert to accomplish what can be accomplished within this universe. Whether outside this universe he is the lesser power among other God's is irrelevant as to us he is the creator and originator and has sufficient power to accomplish anything logically possible within this universe.

2) No that is what I meant. So you would have to be part of the empowered group to believe or just a witness of it?

2a) Actually without pulling out my lexicon I'm fairly certain that I would fine 2 thes. an eternal (duration) consequence (punishment/ restitution/ payment/ ruin). The finality of absolute destruction wouldn't be an eternal (won't change over time) consequence (is punishment for crime)?

3)The Church of God is a reference to body of believers with Jesus at their head referencing 1 Corinthians 12:12-26; Ephesians 1:18-23; Colossians 1:17-20

3a)first: is there a biblical support for God & Satan speaking in our minds? Psalm 85:8; Jeremiah 7:23-24 both talk about hearing God's words.
then, how would you determine if it was actual or illusory communication? Since it is strictly internal... there would be no valid way of determining that objectively. However if I wasn't having illusions, hallucinations or delusions prior and didn't have them after and was medically fine it wwould either be e fluke or actually perceived.
then, how exactly would you determine its origins? The Bible gives tons of scriptures on this. There are a lot of determiner, but basically to test it against what the Bible says, what interpret it with your own Holy Spirit, and verify it with your personal morality (listen to the laws on your heart). It also doesn't hurt to look for outside verification from trusted peers.

3b)I'm sure there are plenty of instances in the Bible of God commanding believers to kill. If it was truly God telling them to and not justified then God would be not righteous, and therefore immoral. If you state a case here I'll rebut it.

4) & 5) Where did they go?

5a)I am not saying that Sheol is the lake of fire we call hell. The opposite in fact.

5b) Ok I'd say the modern heaven then is the Spiritual realm where God reigns (if that makes the seated analogy any clearer). I believe the verse you're looking for is Luke 18:26-30. John 14 is also a good chapter on heaven.

5c) see 5a

6) where did it go?
6a)Psalms 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD: therefore will he teach sinners in the way.
Nahum 1:7 The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble; and he knoweth them that trust in him.
Matthew 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

7) If you can't even imagine an immaterial essence, then there's really not much fruit going to come of that tree.


Again I apologize for the length of time for a response.