RE: Help with a Catholic
July 27, 2011 at 8:44 am
(This post was last modified: July 27, 2011 at 11:51 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Examples of the decision that an unborn fetus is not a human being, ergo abortion is not murder? Wow...Roe v Wade. That's how such things are decided. The individual has an opinion of what is moral, it gets weighed against an opposing opinion, and a decision is made (always subject to review). It may not be satisfying to those that want to believe in absolute moral authority, but there it is. What is "morally upright" is determined by the culture. Sure there are minimums, the price of entry into life, whereby we cant be so destructive to each other that there are none of us left....but that's it, everything else is fair game, as history has shown us since we began recording it. My own personal morality doesn't factor in, I'm not pro abortion, personally, but my own predispositions for this or that are irrelevant except where they serve to represent the group. If enough people felt the same way I did about abortion then perhaps it would be illegal, it is not. Again, I do not have to refer to absolute morality for the conclusions of the group to be valid. I do not believe that such a thing exists, again, it is not my burden to prove that it does, and that my opinions, or the opinions of others are consistent with the concept. Sometimes the conclusions we reach when we have an honest discussion about a concept like "absolute morality" are uncomfortable. That the world around us is not concerned with our comfort goes without saying, but I do understand the desire for there to be "more" to it than some set of rules agreed upon by the individuals of the group for the betterment of the whole, there just isn't anything to demonstrate to us that this isn't the case.
You want god, you want absolute morality, fine, prove it. Your cross, not mine.
Here you go Hunry, a nuts and bolts focus on his logic.
Your friend has stated that abortion is wrong/immoral (whatever he wants to call it)
He gave his supporting evidence, from the realm of science, he also has an implied set of support from his religious beliefs. To him these seem complimentary, no problem.
The problem is that his assertion, part of his premise, is that there are things that are absolutely morally bankrupt. That there is an absolute moral authority. He must show this to be the case before he may proceed from premise to conclusion. If he cannot, than his propositions from that premise to that conclusion do not follow each other. They are invalid.
It is illegal to murder a human being
Fetus=human being
Abortion should be illegal
Would be fine if we hadn't already decided that for the purposes of legal procedure fetus does not equal human being. Going from legality to morality is an interesting jump that he seems to have made. Or going from legality to absolute moral authority. He's not arguing his main point, he's not arguing his "god" assumption, and the argument he's making from legality does not follow. In the end he uses this argument as tacit approval for both his main point of absolute morality and god assumption. Its tortuous logic. That may be why you get more criticism than focus on the logic itself.
Wondering whether or not you could pull the trigger when faced with someone who you have absolutely no knowledge of (innocence/guilt) can be an interesting line of discussion. Drawing from recorded human history and my own personal experiences, it seems obvious to me that we can do this thing, that the act is not beyond any of us. Whether or not it is "kosher" to do so is muddy. It's an honest answer, one with few assumptions. Doesn't mean I like it. It would be nice if we were all on the same page regarding morality. Would save alot of strife in the world, I have kids, I want them to have a safe world to live in..........however, there's no shame in stating the obvious.
You want god, you want absolute morality, fine, prove it. Your cross, not mine.
Here you go Hunry, a nuts and bolts focus on his logic.
Your friend has stated that abortion is wrong/immoral (whatever he wants to call it)
He gave his supporting evidence, from the realm of science, he also has an implied set of support from his religious beliefs. To him these seem complimentary, no problem.
The problem is that his assertion, part of his premise, is that there are things that are absolutely morally bankrupt. That there is an absolute moral authority. He must show this to be the case before he may proceed from premise to conclusion. If he cannot, than his propositions from that premise to that conclusion do not follow each other. They are invalid.
It is illegal to murder a human being
Fetus=human being
Abortion should be illegal
Would be fine if we hadn't already decided that for the purposes of legal procedure fetus does not equal human being. Going from legality to morality is an interesting jump that he seems to have made. Or going from legality to absolute moral authority. He's not arguing his main point, he's not arguing his "god" assumption, and the argument he's making from legality does not follow. In the end he uses this argument as tacit approval for both his main point of absolute morality and god assumption. Its tortuous logic. That may be why you get more criticism than focus on the logic itself.
Wondering whether or not you could pull the trigger when faced with someone who you have absolutely no knowledge of (innocence/guilt) can be an interesting line of discussion. Drawing from recorded human history and my own personal experiences, it seems obvious to me that we can do this thing, that the act is not beyond any of us. Whether or not it is "kosher" to do so is muddy. It's an honest answer, one with few assumptions. Doesn't mean I like it. It would be nice if we were all on the same page regarding morality. Would save alot of strife in the world, I have kids, I want them to have a safe world to live in..........however, there's no shame in stating the obvious.
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