Do Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence?

[pocaracas]

Steve, you're my new favorite theist, on here.... well.... after CL, of course!

I just saw this list on some other reply... and had to say something!

Like I said before, I didn't read the whole thread.... I have no idea what Documentary you mean... [1]
May I suggest a few?
BBC's Bible Buried Secrets
Finkelstein's Bible Unearthed

Before churches got that name, they were temples... temples have existed for far longer than christianity, or even judaism. [2]


As if fiction was something brand new in the world... huh? [3]


You mean, the claims that someone else wrote down? [4]


Seems to fit...
Confucious' message also seems to fit.
Buddah's, too.

Both came before Jesus. Can't be impressed that it showed up at that particular location of the... wait for it... silk road! [5]


Have you ever read Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities? [6]
Minimalist can get you a copy...


First off.... facts is hardly a word I'd use there. [7]
But what do you know of the Essenes? And the likely claim that, had he existed, both John the Baptist and Jesus were Essenes?
And note the similarities between Jesus and the Essene figure of the Teacher of Righteousness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teacher_of_Righteousness.


We say that there is no evidence of a particular thing - the god and it's extraordinary feats.
The existence of believers is never questioned. All the things you mention were done by believers. People who, even way back then, described themselves as believers. It's like they didn't have first hand knowledge.
People who, apparently, already followed some sort of belief system... how difficult would it be to follow a new charismatic leader, such as Paul? [8]

1. Documents. Such as the 27 in the NT. Some relating events, others expounding on the beliefs that these events precipitated. Most scholars think there were even earlier documents that Paul and the gospel writers had available to them. 

Well... there were even earlier beliefs... much much earlier... even before the god of Abraham showed up. And some even have supporting documents! Shouldn't these earlier tales be much more trustworthy? much closer to the original presentation of god to mankind?

And of course, it is relatively easy to expand pre-existing belief into something larger, or broader. That ignorant people believed the tales is not very amazing... look around - how many people in this world are believing tales from a different religion? Both can't be true.

2. Not what I meant by churches. I mean the Christian groups found in various cities throughout the Roman empire prior to Paul's writings (starting in 50AD). He wrote to many of them and referred to others.

Were they really christian groups? Or Essene groups? Do the Essenes feature in the Bible?
Care to speculate on why the religious group that exists on or near Jerusalem and that is the most similar in philosophy to Christianity does not feature in the Christian holy book?

3. How much of what we have is fiction? Are there actual reasons to think this is so? 

All religions make similar claims... they can't all be right.
At best, only one can be right... all are fiction, except maybe (and this is a big maybe) one.
Is there any reason to think the NT is not fiction? It has some historical figures and locations right?... well, may I counter with Harry Potter who lives in London, UK?... or maybe Sherlock Holmes? Poirot? no?... How about Siper-man in New York? Socrates in Athens?

4. All claims are written down. The gospel editors certainly had access to eyewitnesses, other documents in existence at the time, and well within the period that any number of rebuttal witnesses could have come forward. Further, the editors were not coldly relating some facts they heard to let the reader make up their own mind. They were attesting to the truthfulness of the content of their books. 

In those days, the land was big. Populations didn't intermingle like they do now. You were very unlikely to ever go more than 20 or 30km away from the place where you were born. But some people did travel and spread wonderful tales from yonder. Some would believe the tales and retell them.... some (I hazard to guess, most) would remain believing whatever they had been taught to believe before that.

I do often wonder why were there still jews, after the whole of Jerusalem witnessing the rise of Jesus and other dead and buried people... one would expect the whole population of that city to not only believe, but totally devote to the thing.... however... that didn't happen, did it?
It's like the gospel stories are all disconnected from one another and from the lives of people. That certainly puts a dent in their believability as accounts of actual events... and strengthens the likelihood of it being fiction.

5. Are the words attributed to Jesus part of the fiction/myth theory or the conspiracy theory? How about his claims? He didn't just talk about being nice. He claimed to be God and be the only way by which we can be saved from judgement--a unique formula never seen before on earth. 

I wouldn't be so sure it had never been seen on Earth... do you have evidence of that?

As for what is claimed to have been said... meh... It is very likely that someone did say some of those things, and that some others are fiction. If they were all said by the same person is unknown. The Jesus of the gospels does seem to be a tapestry of different people, doesn't he?

6. No. 

Well, you would learn something about actual history if you read it.
Reality is seldom as simple as it is presented.

7. Name one credible scholar that does not believe in a literal Jesus. In the meantime:

You are aware of the difference between the "historical Jesus" (the one that scholars accept existed) and the Jesus of the gospels, yes?
This historical Jesus may not even have lived in the 1st century, but well before. It seems most of the message already existed some 2 centuries prior.... by none other than the Teacher of Righteousness.

8. I'm not clear on what you are claiming. Paul invented Christianity?

Paul was certainly the greatest influence in shaping present-day Christianity. Read that book.