Do Christian Parents Abuse their Children?

[Bow Before Zeus]

Let's say that someone steps on my foot and causes me pain. The involuntary reflex period passes, but then I look at this person and think "I ought to punch you in the face!"

But then I think: "Wait a second, he didn't mean to step on my foot." And then I don't punch him. Have I violated ethics in any way here?

Ok, so what you have described here is a situation where an unwholesome thought has arisen, you were self aware enough to recognise that unwholesome thought and you did not allow that thought to turn into words or actions. Were you unethical? In words and actions, no but in thoughts, yes. Let's say you were not self aware enough to notice the unwholesome thought and it resulting in some words or actions against the perpetrator. Because the unwholesome thought arose, there is a chance that it will be followed by unwholesome words and/or actions.

Let's take the same scenario but with a different result. Someone steps on your foot and causes you pain. You do not have thoughts of retaliation. What are the chances that unethical words or actions will follow? None. In the first scenario there is always a chance. In the second scenario, it is not possible.

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The title of the post is supported by the text in the post. Richard Dawkins' assertion is that it is child abuse to teach religion as fact as many xtian and muslim parents do. I thought I made that obvious.

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If you think that your posts made any kind of argument, you are really bad at this. "Dawkins said so" is not an argument. Exactly, Richard Dawkins' assertion. You repeating it does not magically turn it into an argument. Most of his arguments are against extreme examples or caricatures of Christianity. The rest are badly reasoned. Even atheist philosophers blanch at his books. 

"(a series of purported historical events)" is an example of this mental abuse. The bible is NOT a historical document. Far from it. Many of the events have not and can not be verified by actual historical documents. So something like stations of the cross is a mentally aberrant teaching which could never be verified even a few years after the event let along a few thousand years. Reality is, it never happened and yet it is being taught as fact in catholic schools. 

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First, Jesus being crucified is one of the most attested to facts of the ancient world. Most atheist historians think that it happened. This fact alone completely obliterates the thesis that to teach it to children is "in short, child abuse" or could lead to "mentally handicapped". Second, you are continuing to fail to tell us HOW this is abuse even if the parents or school was wrong. 

"background in theology" - a nice ad homonym attack. Reality is that a degree in theology is equivalent to a degree in voodoo magic. Neither of them studies a scientifically verifiable fact. They are based on current mythologies. So no, I prefer using the critical thinking I have been taught in a scientific based degree to logically analyse and critique mythological texts. I read the xtian NT 3 times to find some sort of coherent meaning. There was none. And for your information, the "ethical theory" which I used was not mine. I wish I could lay claim to it! No, I used the most rigorous ethical system that I had read about to date and that was to be found in Buddhism (also Jainism). The ethical logic in these systems condemns the triumvirate of Abrahamic religions and shines a light on the unwholesomeness of their teachings. Teaching children unwholesome teachings is certainly abusive.

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You admitted your Biblical IQ was low in your quaint little story. Since it was clear you have no background in systematic theology or biblical hermeneutics, your analysis couldn't have been thorough...but it does not matter--I granted you (for the sake of this argument only) that you found stories that raise moral questions. The fact that  you did not find any meaning in the NT, is an individual matter (because millions do). You are going to have to list out some of the "unwholesome teachings" that rise to the level of abuse. Simply asserting that there are some (over and over) is horrible discussion/argumentation skills. 

I don't see how I am breaking rules when all I have done is discussed a topic that Richard Dawkins has raised and give examples of how it has affected my family in the past. Certainly it is not my intention to offend but by the same token, I will not sit back and pretend this does not happen. I will also not give it more palatable names or disguise it for what it is in a 1984 style newspeak. If this is what gets me banned then I will wear that as a badge of honour, knowing that I have not sat back silently while children are mentally abused. It only takes ethical people to sit back and say nothing for this sort of abuse to continue.

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You did NOT give an argument. You said that Dawkins says it. Actually I have The God Delusion open. What page does Dawkins say specifically that "Christians abuse their children" in the same blanket way that you said it? Perhaps with that, we can get some details and you can avoid breaking the rules.

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I don't use "Dawkins said so" as a support for his argument. That doesn't make any sense. It's like saying "the bible says so - so it must be true". See? It doesn't make any sense.

There is no historical proof of JC's life let alone how he died. How then can anyone state there were 14 or 15 or 12 or any "stations of the cross"? This is an absurdity. You don't even know what you had for lunch a year ago, how would anyone know what JC did 2,000 years ago?

"The fact that  you did not find any meaning in the NT, is an individual matter" - No, it is a matter of simple logic. Unless you do a great deal of mental gymnastics, there is little to no consistent, coherent meaning in the bible. It's why I had to read the NT 3 times - just to make sure I wasn't missing something.

He does not say it in the god delusion. He says it in interviews and in articles.

I have defined unwholesome thoughts, words and actions as being those that harm or kill living beings. Your god is responsible for the death of millions of living beings in one supposed act of his - the great flood. But this is just one of his many heinous crimes.

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Not my assertion but Richard Dawkins believes that bringing children up to believe that their parents religion is true is tantamount to child abuse. The argument is that by doing so the child is ill equipped to make their own way in the world when they go out on their own.

OK, let's see some stats on that argument.

I have a personal story about this.

No, not anecdotes, real evidence please.

Sure, here's some:

http://www.skepticfiles.org/american/prison.htm

Atheists supply less than 1% of American prisons. The vast majority are some form of xtianity. So, teach your children to be good xtians so they can go straight to prison. That's child abuse. Here's a nice quote from the article:

Dr. Christian, Superintendant of the NY State Reformatories, checked
22,000 prison inmates and found only 4 college graduates.  In "Who's Who"
91% were college graduates, and he commented that "intelligence and
knowledge produce right living" and that "crime is the offspring of
superstition and ignorance."

Superstition and ignorance - ie xtianity - lead to prison life. This is just one tiny example so let's not get hung up over it. These sorts of results can be seen throughout society.

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I'm going to report this. At least for the title.

Beat me to it. And SteveII's like a lawyer, man, clearly revealing the hate and provocation. This one strikes me as particularly anti-Catholic bigotry. Know who else is anti-Catholic...the Klan...

Let's have a little competition and see which theist can get the most threads banned based on the new rules.

How can I be "anti-Catholic" when one of my best friends in Catholic? Seriously, you need to stop taking things so personally and attack the argument instead of the person. I would not say anything against my Catholic friends.

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Maybe she just doesn't like the guy, lol.  I mean, I say the same thing about WLC all the time, but I'm not usually trying to brew up a shit storm.  Usually.  😎

Haha, yes LFC!

And yeah, I can't imagine why I wouldn't like someone who accuses my parents (and myself if I have kids) of abusing children.

Don't take it personally, CL. One of the posters here accused me of the same thing because I sent my daughter to a catholic school. I didn't take it personally. I admitted that I was not as careful as I could have been and as soon as I realised I rectified the situation. If we sweep things under the carpet instead of bringing them into the light and examining them, then we continue the abuse simply because we are not aware of it. I put an end to it as soon as I became aware of it. The first step is to reconginse it and admit it.

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I agree that this is an awful thing to do to a child. 'Abuse' might imply some intent, though, and I don't think most religious parents want anything but the best for their children; they simply have a flawed understanding of how to achieve it. The way you phrased this might be what's upsetting some of the theists and other posters, though.

Personally I can tell that one of the best things that ever happened to me was being raised secularly and to critically think. The fact that so many children are denied this opportunity makes me sad; they are at a point in their life where they have not yet had a chance. I strongly believe that the education system should be secular.

This is a crucial point. Of course no good parent would want to deliberately disadvantage or abuse their children - quite the opposite, they shower them with love and kindness. However, ignorance of the damage they are doing to their children by teaching their religions means that they cannot correct their behaviour. Instead they go into denial mode and shut down completely. When one of the members here accused me of mentally abusing my oldest child by sending her to a catholic school I had to admit that by not carefully investigating the school beforehand that I do accept the accusation. The difference is thought that as soon as I became aware of the situation I rectified it. Ignoring it or denying it only leads to situations like the catholic church is in with a huge cover-up of child molestation.

Good to hear you were raised with critical thinking. I found my daughers prospered an amazing amount by being introduced to critical thinking.