RE: Changing ones mind about a subject
November 20, 2017 at 4:45 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 4:55 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
I'm not saying it's impossible I'm saying I've never seen it.
That's what I was getting at Sal. If you can't be reasoned into an argument you're unlikely to be reasoned out of one. I mean what's gonna happen, someone is suddenly going to learn how to follow a valid argument correctly halfway through a debate "Oh I didn't understand your argument but now I do".
I do wonder if even beliefs that are considered to be reasoned into are ultimately motivated by subconscious emotions. Reason is the slave of the passions and all that jazz. Even the most rational of us aren't really rational beings. We're mammals, not Vulcans. All of our behaviors and decisions are determined by brain chemistry as much as a few seconds before our conscious mind is even aware of them (multiple peer reviewed and double-blind scientific experiments have testified to that) . . . our reasoning doesn't come out of nowhere and isn't the master of itself. We're ultimately primal and we use rationality to justify things. We recognize logic when it's helpful to us but we often subvert it when it's helpful to us to subvert it. Or rather, helpful to our subconscious brain, regardless of what we consciously think is helpful to us or not.
An interesting book that gives the scientific evidence of how irrational humans really are and how we're often mistaken about our own rationality is Thinking Fast and Slow by psychologist Daniel Kahneman.
That's what I was getting at Sal. If you can't be reasoned into an argument you're unlikely to be reasoned out of one. I mean what's gonna happen, someone is suddenly going to learn how to follow a valid argument correctly halfway through a debate "Oh I didn't understand your argument but now I do".
(November 20, 2017 at 4:22 pm)Sal Wrote:(November 20, 2017 at 3:59 pm)Hammy Wrote: I am not so sure . . . people can feel they lost a debate but I think that's different from actually changing your mind or being able to see where your own logic is wrong. If you're capable of seeing your logical argument is invalid why would you make it in the first place? And if you made it dishonestly then you didn't even believe your argument was valid in the first place, you were using a fallacious argument on purpose to try and win a debate and you only admitted you were wrong when it became clear to your opponent that your argument was fallacious. If someone isn't logical enough to see their argument is fallacious then how can they be shown that it's fallacious?
It has been said that people who haven't been reasoned into a position cannot be reasoned out it.
Seems to me that people that are emotionally convinced of something fit this bill. Particularly believers, who, "feel" Jesus in their hearts. Problem with that is that no amount of emotional conviction is gonna prove that Jesus is real or that their feelings are even justified; I'm thinking here that it is religiously inspired delusion, which I know all too well as an apostate.
In fact, I think emotions are patently false way to acquire any kind of insight. Sure, touchy-feely emotions might go a long way to convince someone of something, but I think it, like in the opposite strand - irrational fear - proves nothing.
I do wonder if even beliefs that are considered to be reasoned into are ultimately motivated by subconscious emotions. Reason is the slave of the passions and all that jazz. Even the most rational of us aren't really rational beings. We're mammals, not Vulcans. All of our behaviors and decisions are determined by brain chemistry as much as a few seconds before our conscious mind is even aware of them (multiple peer reviewed and double-blind scientific experiments have testified to that) . . . our reasoning doesn't come out of nowhere and isn't the master of itself. We're ultimately primal and we use rationality to justify things. We recognize logic when it's helpful to us but we often subvert it when it's helpful to us to subvert it. Or rather, helpful to our subconscious brain, regardless of what we consciously think is helpful to us or not.
An interesting book that gives the scientific evidence of how irrational humans really are and how we're often mistaken about our own rationality is Thinking Fast and Slow by psychologist Daniel Kahneman.
