Kid dies

[Drich]

I was thinking about this earlier.  Heaven and hell are a manifestation of the imagination of people who recognize that the world isn't fair, and can't accept it.  They are completely unable to accept reality as it is, and so they imagine a reality in which everybody gets what they deserve.  But the people who thought it up were primitive people, with primitive ideas about justice.  To them, their enemies deserved the worst punishment imaginable, and the good people deserve the best results possible.  It's stupid and absurd.  But modern religious people are shackled to the past, and so they endorse such infantile fantasies.

And for those (like the writers of the bible) who do not describe Heaven and Hell as being about what is or is not fair? Even Christ in the parable of the workers (where a land owner goes out several different times and highers workers throughout the day) and at the end they all get the very same reward/which was unfair for the very first workers.

Heaven has Christ taught it was often time at odds with the soceity's heigharchy on what was fair and not fair. The prime example being one could not hold a grudge or have ill will towards another even if that person sinned aginst him. The parable of the unmerciful servant shows us that if we seek vengence for being treated wrongly and will not forgive another who sinned against us, we in turn are endanger of loosing our own salvation. This was a very counter culture idea at the time and one you seemed to miss as well in your deep thoughts sessions.

Not to mention the idea of Hell was new, and who went to Hell did not always included enmies, but loved ones as well. often times believers would have to choose their God over their family member. This too is very counter the cut and dry veiw of a simplistic/primitive man heaven or hell. Rather this is what moder people believe Heaven and hell are about rather than what the bible teaches. It is a way for the 'superior mind' to straw man their way past the subject rather than try and explain what is written on page concerning heaven or hell

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I'm more concerned about kids born to hell.

"spider boy" is 'proof' of anything. God is repersented by that sack of food, and the commission for us to feed the hungry. If there was no food in the sack along with that command, then that is a no God situation. The fact that God decided that 10% of us control where the vast majority of food goes and tells us to share, yet we don't is proof of evil/satan in our cultures. not the lack of God.

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I was thinking about this earlier.  Heaven and hell are a manifestation of the imagination of people who recognize that the world isn't fair, and can't accept it.  They are completely unable to accept reality as it is, and so they imagine a reality in which everybody gets what they deserve.  But the people who thought it up were primitive people, with primitive ideas about justice.  To them, their enemies deserved the worst punishment imaginable, and the good people deserve the best results possible.  It's stupid and absurd.  But modern religious people are shackled to the past, and so they endorse such infantile fantasies.

*bold mine

There is a great deal of truth to all this, and while i was re-thinking my Christianity this was my last thread of hope i held onto this was the only thing that would make any sense at all, to make the world just in any way. This is what I used to teach regarding the problem of evil and i could see the comfort it gave people, pity like most platitudes it was simply an illusion.

Of course now the reality is simply that we really are on our own, that humanity has to do this.  Humanity is responsible for it's own justice, indeed humanity has made baby steps in this area.  I wont see it, neither shall you but i'm convinced that one way or another it is inevitable.

Even then it may be an illusion but, I can do what I can, it's given me purpose and a reason that shines even brighter than the faith I once held so dear, One of us can only make the tiniest difference, but that difference will count to our children, and our children's children.  In the same way dependence on the supernatural spread we can teach reliance on self, the next generation to look the universe in the eye and the need to get on with our fellow humanity.

Religion has failed miserably it's time for a newer braver future free of irrational fear, this is what i fight for now, it's time to build for our children's children.

Religion may have failed, but only a fool ascribes that failure to God. Over and over through the scriptures and in history of the church we have revival after revival/shedding of religion inorder for people to seek God directly rather than through the lens of religion.

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Jeffrey Dahmer found Jesus in prison, before he was murdered by another inmate. Even though he kidnapped young men, injectected battery acid into their brains, killed them and ate parts of them... He’ll get to spend eternity in heaven? Christ on a cracker, how is that just? Thankfully, there is no rational evidence for heaven or hell.

Exactly! Unlike what Jorge thinks Heaven and Hell is not about what is just or moral. At least not according to the bible (if you guys care to read it for yourself rather than let a preist tell you what is in it.)

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Jeffrey Dahmer found Jesus in prison, before he was murdered by another inmate. Even though he kidnapped young men, injectected battery acid into their brains, killed them and ate parts of them... He’ll get to spend eternity in heaven? Christ on a cracker, how is that just? Thankfully, there is no rational evidence for heaven or hell.

It depends. Did he just say he was sorry, say some prayers, and say he believes in Jesus? Or did he truly have genuine remorse for all his wrong doings, a complete change of heart, and a real desire to strive for a life of virtue? There is a difference between the 2.

Google james dobbson dalmer interview. He seems legit to me, but only God can be the judge of that.

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But then isn't asking for forgiveness a matter of timing? What if you live an incredibly moral life, then screw up badly -- but you die before you can reflect on your deeds and ask for forgiveness. Seems like bad luck to be in this situation.

Good timing > good moral behavior seems to be the takeaway.

only if you believe God to be a fool and can not tell timing verses sincerity.

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That’s an interesting view.  I don’t see the teachings about heaven as being deserved at all. Quite the opposite in fact.

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Romans 10:8-9, NASB

I don't give a shit about "teaching" if it's not what people believed in their hearts.  The simple truth is that believers then, as now, commonly believed themselves saved, despite the finer points of theology.  Your "teaching" meant diddly to the common man.  Take the following sample from a random Christian website for example:

I'm Glad I'm Saved Because ...
Bill Brinkworth

Getting saved is one of the greatest experiences one can ever have. There are many good things that come along with having God’s promise of heaven. I am so glad that I am saved:

*Because I am going to heaven. All through the Bible there are many verses telling its readers how they can know for sure that when they die they will go to heaven. All they need to do is trust that Christ’s finished work on the cross is payment for all their sins.

Is there or is there not a performance criterion for salvation?  Will the enemies of Christ be saved?  Who do you think that leaves to be saved.  Your apologetics 101 argument that salvation comes only through grace is a dodge for the obvious, Christians consider themselves likely to be saved because of their faith in the life and the resurrection.  If not, then what is the point in believing?  It's an us versus them polarization, plain and simple, despite your tap dancing.  That's why we have ignorant shitheads like Godscreated lecturing us on this site about the proper way to live; he's convinced he's got his.  Maybe if Christians actually believed the teaching and lived in doubt, you'd have a point; but they don't.  The "teaching" on heaven and hell developed in the period just prior to the life of Christ.  How do you know that salvation through grace is what was being taught then?  I imagine then as now, what was "taught" was the promise of salvation.  That's the engine which drives apocalypticism.  Your complaint about later "teaching" is just so much irrelevant noise compared to that practical fact.

See for example, the following from Isaiah:

10 In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious.

11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush,[a] from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.

12
He will raise a signal for the nations
   and will assemble the banished of Israel,
and gather the dispersed of Judah
   from the four corners of the earth.
13
The jealousy of Ephraim shall depart,
   and those who harass Judah shall be cut off;
Ephraim shall not be jealous of Judah,
   and Judah shall not harass Ephraim.
14
But they shall swoop down on the shoulder of the Philistines in the west,
   and together they shall plunder the people of the east.
They shall put out their hand against Edom and Moab,
   and the Ammonites shall obey them.
15
And the Lord will utterly destroy[b]
   the tongue of the Sea of Egypt,
and will wave his hand over the River[c]
   with his scorching breath,[d]
and strike it into seven channels,
   and he will lead people across in sandals.
16
And there will be a highway from Assyria
   for the remnant that remains of his people,
as there was for Israel
   when they came up from the land of Egypt.

Isaiah 11:10-16, NASB

Just who do you think Isaiah is talking about here?

Who (not what) is "the word." As in John 1:1 forward. The "Word" is another name for Jesus. so substitute "The word" with JEsus and you get 8 But what does it say? “Jesus is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is,Jesus by faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

So IF Jesus is Near you, in your mouth (you speak about him) nd in your Heart/you think and lng to be with Him)  you teach him, then if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus is Lord then... you will be saved.

Takes on a new meaning when you understand who the word is, and again John 1:1 forward defines who the word is.