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Who Dies For A Lie?
#1
Who Dies For A Lie?
Some Christians say that the bible must be true because according to tradition, several of the apostles were killed spreading Jesus's message.

Here are some groups, according to Wikipidia, that died for a lie:

The People's Temple members in Jonestown, Guyana, killed themselves, 909 in all, after Congress began investigating the group. A siege by federal agents resulted in the deaths of 76 follows of David Koresh in Waco, Texas. Common believe was that cults 'exploded' because of outside forces.

Heaven's Gate was an American UFO religious Millenarian group based in San Diego, California, founded in the early 1970s and led by Marshall Applewhite (1931–1997) and Bonnie Nettles (1927–1985).[1] On March 26, 1997, police discovered the bodies of 39 members of the group who had committed mass suicide[2] in order to reach what they believed was an alien space craft following Comet Hale–Bopp.

Solar Temple A few days later, Di Mambro and twelve followers performed a ritual Last Supper. A few days after that, apparent mass suicides and murders were conducted at Cheiry and Salvan, two villages in Western Switzerland, and at Morin Heights — 15 inner circle members committed suicide with poison, 30 were killed by bullets or smothering, and 8 others were killed by other causes. In Switzerland, many of the victims were found in a secret underground chapel lined with mirrors and other items of Templar symbolism. The bodies were dressed in the order's ceremonial robes and were in a circle, feet together, heads outward, most with plastic bags tied over their heads; they had each been shot in the head.


The Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God was a breakaway religious movement from the Roman Catholic Church founded by Credonia Mwerinde, Joseph Kibweteere and Bee Tait in Uganda. It was formed in the late 1980s after Mwerinde, a brewer of banana beer, and Kibweteere, a politician, claimed that they had visions of the Virgin Mary. The five primary leaders were Joseph Kibweteere, Joseph Kasapurari, John Kamagara, Dominic Kataribabo, and Credonia Mwerinde. In early 2000, followers of the religious movement perished in a devastating fire and a series of poisonings and killings that were either a group suicide or an orchestrated mass murder by group leaders after their predictions of the apocalypse failed to come about.[1] In their coverage of that event, BBC News and The New York Times referred to the Movement as a Doomsday cult.[2][3]



All of this has been copied and pasted from Wikipedia.

Yes, people will die for a lie
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#2
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
Ask them if the "martyrs" knew it was a lie or if they had deluded themselves into believing it wasn't.
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#3
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
Here is another one but I couldn't find the story on Wikipedia

http://www.crimelibrary.com/photogallery...curPhoto=7

Paradise
She came to the attention of law enforcement after two former cultists were beaten when they asked for their belongings back. In 1987 Park was under investigation by authorities for allegedly swindling $8.7 million from 220 of her followers. On August 29 Park, her three adult children and 28 others were found dead in the factory by her husband. The bodies were in a pile, many with rope or cloths tied around their necks. The presence of bottles of drugs at the crime scene led police to believe that the cultists ingested the drugs before strangling each other. The last to die hanged himself.
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#4
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
Yes, I agree people will die for a lie.
Islam proves that every other day.
However, there is a big difference between dying (or dying in the process of being a murderer- in the case of Islam) in the belief that action will (by itself) will warrant Paradise, verses being willing to die rather than reject one's belief.
Huge difference.

I remember watching an army tank shooting fire into the wooden Koresh compound.
These people were murdered,and Janet Reno accepted responsibility but never went to prison for it.
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#5
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
How did the apostles die?

Judas - either committed suicide by hanging himself, or fell and exploded. Depends on which Gospel you read.

John - died of old age.

James son of Zebedee - killed by sword by Herod. No further information given. How does one claim he was a martyr from this?

Simon Peter - The "Acts of Peter" claim that he accepted Crucifixion willingly. But many, including Eusebius, dismiss this book as spurious and heretical.

Andrew - supposedly martyred on an X shaped cross. But this info comes from the apocryphal 2nd century "Acts of Andrew". Eusebius dismiss this book as spurious and heretical.

Philip - According to the 4th century apocryphal "Acts of Philip", he died after being hung upside down. According to this source, Philip cursed his enemies and Jesus returned and rebuked him. No legitimate theologian takes this text seriously.

Bartholomer - The 3rd century bishop Hippolytus claims he was crucified in Armenia. A different tradition claims he was beheaded in India. Legitimate theologians the manner of his death is uncertain.

Thomas - Tradition holds that he was stabbed by a spear while preaching in India. This claim comes from local Christians and an apocryphal book "The Acts of Thomas. Legitimate theologians state that little is known about Thomas' life.

Matthew - Little is known about his later life. How he died is uncertain. The Christian History Institute says, “We have nothing but legend about Matthew’s death.”

James, son of Alphaeus - It isn't even known which James in the Gospels is identified with this apostle. Josephus says that James was stoned by the Pharisees. This is seconded by Hippolytus. However, other sources say that James son of Alphaeus was martyred by crucifixion in Egypt.

Jude/Lebbaeus Thaddaeus - Very conflicting traditions. The one that comes up most, is that he went to preach in Armenia with Simon. But this is a late development. Another says he was clubbed to death , yet the apocryphal "Acts of Thaddeus" says he died of natural causes. There is no reliable written sources for any of this.

Simon the Zealot - Western traditions hold that he was martyred in Persia with Jude, while Eastern tradition says he died naturally in Edessa. Other sources variously give his place of death as Samaria (Israel), or Iberia (Spain), or Colchis (Georgia), or even Britain. In these traditions, even the method of death are disputed.

Matthias - 14th-century historian Nicephorus, he died by crucifixion in Colchis. The 17th-century historian Louis-Sébastien Le Nain de Tillemont says that he was stoned and then beheaded in Jerusalem. According to the New Advent Catholic encyclopedia, “all… information concerning the life and death of Matthias is vague and contradictory”

So, where are all these apostles that willingly went to death for their beliefs again?

The truth of this claim is not born out by the facts.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#6
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
(January 13, 2015 at 9:06 pm)professor Wrote: Yes, I agree people will die for a lie.
Islam proves that every other day.
However, there is a big difference between dying (or dying in the process of being a murderer- in the case of Islam) in the belief that action will (by itself) will warrant Paradise, verses being willing to die rather than reject one's belief.
Huge difference.

I remember watching an army tank shooting fire into the wooden Koresh compound.
These people were murdered,and Janet Reno accepted responsibility but never went to prison for it.

ROFLOL
The huge difference is the muslim is willing to die rather than reject the belief that dying for his belief will get him into paradise.
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#7
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
Quote:However, there is a big difference between dying (or dying in the process of being a murderer- in the case of Islam) in the belief that action will (by itself) will warrant Paradise, verses being willing to die rather than reject one's belief.


No there isn't. You clowns all have the same act, Prof. You are no better or worse than any other dumb fuck with a holy book.
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#8
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
So Min, if some Muslim with a gun pointed at you tells you to convert to Islam, or you will be killed OR publicly proclaim your allegiance to allah, kiss his ass, bow down 5 times a day. You have no problem with doing that?
Yes Min, there is a difference in motivation for what people do.
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#9
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
Since it is meaningless...as meaningless as your fucking jesus, btw, I probably would.

I would know I am dealing with a mental midget, Prof. Just as I know now.
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#10
RE: Who Dies For A Lie?
Joseph Smith was assassinated (apparently, in my view) by his own disgruntled followers for, if not 10s of thousands of lies, 100s of thousands of lies if not millions of lies.
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