Kid dies

[RoadRunner79]

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It is normally credited to Augustine for saying "Never judge a philosophy by it's abuse".  I suppose that I differ from you, because I'm not concerned more with the foundations, and what is true, rather than the distortion. Here I would think that it is quicker to ask, what is the basis for that doctrine, rather than trying to figure out if it is sound, which even if it is sound, doesn't make it legit.  

I think that it is interesting, in your reference of Romans here.   That might have been something that I would have picked to support the opposite.  For your random website, I don't think that it demonstrates your point very well, you may want to apply some intelligent design to your process.  I'm also not sure where you are getting with the Isaiah passage (though I didn't look it up for context). 

I don't disagree, that a works based or performance based system has not been or is not currently taught by some.  I am against these as well (and don't really care if they don't make sense to you).   I'm currently reading about Martin Luther, I was previously familiar with some of the issues about indulgences, but learning more about the extent of the problem, as well as other issues of that time, is eye opening.   However I have read the New Testament, and I have read a number of the early Church writings. I don't see this performance based manipulation being taught or employed.  Now there is some debate, if belief, faith and such are a work.   Something that we are doing.   I tend to fall on the side that it is not; and I think it is a stretch to try to force it into a performance and deserving based system which you seem to be arguing against.   The carefully chosen phrase used (by those who think very much about these things) is "by grace, through faith".  This is what I see in the scriptures and the early writings.   It is pretty much the opposite of what I would do, if the purpose was as you say.    I don't even doubt that you can proof text something which tells us to do good works, or that sounds like it is works based.   However when you look at the whole, I am doubtful you would get that message.

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Are you implying that I claimed that heaven was reserved for those who are justified by their works, because I made no such statement.  Just what exactly is your objection to my original statement? It appears that you read in more than was actually stated.  You seem to have misunderstood both my original statement and my reply, making your comments not so much wrong as simply not germane.  Why don't you clarify what you meant by your original objection.

I apologize, if I misunderstood. I recently had a death in the family, so if you don't mind, I'm just going to drop the subject.