(January 10, 2018 at 2:26 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:(January 10, 2018 at 10:49 am)SteveII Wrote: I would say that Christian are on average more moral than atheists...IF you remove all nominal and cultural Christians from the comparison. The reason being that if a heart change is a result of salvation, then I would question a person's salvation if there is no heart change (or at least a desire). Of course this will bring up the No True Scotsman fallacy, but I don't think it applies because the definition of being a Christian is not ad hoc--it is clearly defined in the foundational documents--the NT.
So, salvation changes hearts. This is demonstrated by the change of heart by all those who are saved. Those whose hearts aren't changed are excluded because they obviously aren't saved. Leaving only those whose hearts have changed. Which is proof that salvation changes hearts.
Hooboy. What a ridiculous and self-serving bit of illogic.
Then I will clarify. I think salvation itself changes some things in the heart but leaves a vast number of things that still need to be worked on. For example, perhaps upon salvation, there is an immediate positive change of heart about pride or contentment, but the person continues to really struggles with anger over the smallest things.
I would expect a desire for change is fairly universal. So that is the reason why I put the phrase "or at least a desire" in my response. While individual results may very, chances are a large group of people who have experienced some change and desire to improve morally as a clearly delineated goal in their worldview will be more moral than a group of people without the same or similar impetus. Logic restored.