(January 30, 2018 at 1:44 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:(January 30, 2018 at 12:39 pm)SteveII Wrote: I understand. The caution would be that to adopt a liberal interpretation of this doctrine is the the price of being wrong is of ultimate significance. Telling people they are okay as long as they honestly try is not only a very minority position among all Christian groups (including Catholics), but seems motivated by emotions--not a different interpretation of scripture. If people come to rely on this for their own lives, the price of being wrong has eternal consequences.
I get erring on the side of caution, which is why the Church is very careful not to say "Everyone can go to Heaven, don't worry, just be a good person!!"
...Heck, Pope Francis got a lot of crap for saying almost exactly that lol. It can give off the impression that seeking truth honestly isn't important, when indeed it is a major part of it.
That's not the message I'm trying to give off, and I would say my conclusions about this come from logic, not emotion. I dont see how it can make logical sense for good and honest people to get damned from an honest mistake, imho, considering Hell is supposed to be something that you choose by deliberately rejecting God.
My two cents.... I would agree, that it does not make sense for good and honest people to be in hell. I don't believe that there will be any such people in hell period. However most when they talk about good and honest people, are speaking in a general or relative sense. I also don't think that it is correct to say that people will be in hell, because of an honest mistake. They will be in hell, because they are sinful.
As to those who are saved. I agree, with what has been said in regards to, I'm not too dogmatic and their may be things that I am missing in the picture. The protestant position, I agree with, and is carefully worded as "by grace; through faith" That is that it is unearned and unmerited favor (not due to us, for being good little boys and girls....relatively speaking). And that it comes through faith in Jesus as Lord. It is also this same faith, which saves those who where before Jesus (Abraham, Moses). And this is where I think it gets difficult and the question comes up "can someone else have a similar kind of faith", without knowledge?
I don't think that it is about anything that you do (good works). I think that the case can and has been made, that if you are relying on works you will fail. I also, would agree, that it is not about having the correct knowledge. I don't think that there will be a theological test, which you must pass to gain entrance. And yet Paul I believe asked the rhetorical question "how can they believe; if they have not heard". Here, I woudl say that the word "believe" is not talking about mere intellectual acknowledgement. This can turn into a very large discussion. But for me, it is a matter of the heart. When Jesus asked "Who do you say that I am?", he wasn't just polling opinions. That is the question... do you submit, that Jesus may stand in over and for you?
As for purgatory. I would agree with the reformers view. I don't really see it taught in scripture, and I would ask, if Jesus's sacrifice was sufficient, and your sins are covered, then I don't see where it makes much sense.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther