The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians

[GrandizerII]

While I doubt your intentions are for mutual understanding, here goes...

I've been there before (believing in the Trinity and defending it back as a Christian). Nothing further for me to understand. This is more of a challenge for theists to step up to the stage and give me their best shot at defending the Trinity as logical. That's if you're a Trinitarian Christian, I mean.

Your Father, Son, Holy Spirit statements are wrong and an obvious attempt to write into your question your conclusion.

Bullshit. This is mainstream Trinitarian belief. If you have a different conception of the Trinity, then that's your choice, but it doesn't reflect the traditional conception of the Trinity.

God is one thing. One soul. Even saying Jesus is God is technically wrong because Jesus =/= God. The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit = God.

Oh, I see, another heretic.

Join Huggy's club then.

God is a soul. What is a soul? The soul or mind is an immaterial or spiritual substance that makes you you (the "I" when you refer to yourself). It is not equal to your brain but relies on it in our present state much like a computer software relies on computer hardware. The soul holds our consciousness, which includes our intellect and volition which allow us to be self-reflective and capable of self determination. I believe like J. P. Moreland that there are various type of souls--from a basic animal with simple reasoning abilities to Chimpanzees with richer capabilities, to humans with even more, to God at the pinnacle.

We experience that each of us has a soul/mind equipped with advanced rational cognitive faculties that we say is sufficient for personhood. God is one soul with three complete sets of rational cognitive faculties with three centers of self-consciousness, intentionality, and will. One immaterial soul containing three distinct persons. There are interesting attributes this creates like God is a relational being and is capable of relational interactions--even within himself (much like we are better people having relationships with other persons).

But other persons I have relationships with and I are not one and the same being, are we? Furthermore, even if we were all the same being, then how can this be if I am not any of them, and none of them are me?

Of course, if you don't accept the mainstream conception of the Trinity, then what I'm arguing here won't apply, but then you're NOT a mainstream Trinitarian Christian. And if you say that Jesus being God is wrong, then that would be a heresy according to the mainstream Christian circles.

While I am not going to say this is the absolute right way to view the trinity, it does counter any claims of being incoherent or illogical.

The way you're arguing this, sure. But that's not the Trinity conception described in the OP, which is based on mainstream Christian belief (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant).

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I would say there was some logical derivation (or rather an attempt at it) that happened, using premises in the Scriptures. It's just that the conclusion itself defies logic.


You don't see how the way I described the Trinity (which you agree is an apt description) defies logic?

If F = G, and S = G, and H = G, is it true that F = S = H?

I suspect, that your mistake, is similar to those who say that there is a contradiction within in the trinity.  This is incorrect;  the law of non-contradiction states that two contradictory statements cannot both be true at the same time, in the same way.  So  I would agree, that in one sense your equation above is correct.  This is similar to the fallacy of equivocation, in that some try to equate this to the other way, and say that they are not equal.  If they are equal and not equal, it is said that this a contradiction.  But this is wrong, because they are not talking about being 3 and being 1 in the same way. 

I hope that perhaps this clears things up.  I realize that I had to make some assumptions, as you didn't really state what you think it is that defies logic.  If you are referring to something else, then please clarify.

Bolded mine. This is the main thrust of your argument. So please enlighten me. Tell me exactly how my equation fails to illustrate anything wrong with the Trinity. Elaborate.

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I don't know, guys. There's this thing called the internet. You might try doing some research on the Trinity instead of asking a half dozen random lay Christians to explain it. Personally, I'd like to see more atheists debate with atheists about atheist approaches to atheistic topics. It's an Atheist Forum afterall. That rather than constantly trying to lure the Christians into arguments.

What, don't like to be challenged? Ok, Neo, I'll make it easy for you. Just paste a link to a good article that really shows there is nothing logically wrong with the Trinity doctrine (the mainstream one, ok?). Best of luck.