[Serious] The Trinity

[zwanzig]

If there are any who are willing to explain what the trinity is and who Jesus Christ is, in relation to God "the Father", I'd very much appreciate it. How can they be the same being? I find this concept very contradictory and confusing and it frustrates me to try to do research on it. I'd like the human interaction and to be able to ask questions. 

I know, Christians probably get this question a lot and it might be tiresome to explain it yet again, especially when I am not going to be converted. But anyone who is patient and feels up to it, I'd like to discuss it and at least logically understand what the canon lore is. If it is possible.

Useless Background:

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After I abandoned Mormonism, I spent a little time on a Christian forum. I felt like I had experiences as a Mormon that were spiritual and I couldn't yet conceptualize my life without a belief in Christ. So, I searched for answers, tried to fill in the holes that Mormonism had left. In the end, I decided I was atheist, mostly because of their open acknowledgement of the history and construction of the Bible, yet they expressed a dependence upon the modern text as the word of God and a literal historical account(possibly there wasn't direct overlap for those who knew the history and authorship of the texts and those who took the text literal, but I find it troubling that these conversations were happening all in the same threads and it didn't shake literal belief in the text). There are many reasons I am an atheist now but that was one of the things that made me finally give up any belief in the Bible or any religion that uses it.

Anyway, Mormons are pantheistic. They think Christ was the literal son of God, a separate spiritual entity as well, and that he holds just as much authority as God. So, when Christians say, the son IS the Father, I don't know how to make the pieces fit.

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[arewethereyet]

I am far from being a religious scholar but being raised Catholic the Holy Trinity was a big deal. The three parts of the trinity are said to be the same, yet different...weird concept to try to wrap your head around. But you have God the Father, Jesus-the son, and The Holy Spirit.

It's one of the things that caused me to not really buy into religion, even as a kid. God is supposed to be some supreme overseer who sent his son to earth in human form to teach and then sacrifice himself to cleanse the people of their sins. (Blood sacrifice at it's finest, I suppose.) The Holy Spirit, or Holy Ghost is something I really never grasped that well but is the power of God.

All three are one yet all three are different...to me it's one of those things you are just supposed to take on faith.

Added to all that in Catholicism is the worship of the Virgin Mary and the saints...which, I think, goes against one of the commandments...but what does a heathen like me know?

There is so much in the various Christian teachings that you are just supposed to go with regardless of how it's not logical. God works in mysterious ways and all that.

[zwanzig]

Thank you, arewe for the explanation. I'm hoping to still get more replies, because my understanding is the same as you've just said here. ^^;; and it...it doesn't fit. Like, I myself have different roles I play, different aspects of my personality. But from "Five, the man" to "Five, the writer", you wouldn't refer to me differently. I am always Five, whether I am son, father(of my pup), farmer, hunter, etc.

There is so much in the various Christian teachings that you are just supposed to go with regardless of how it's not logical. God works in mysterious ways and all that.

I'm not good with that contradiction either. The "here are some answers but only some of them" aspect of faith. Who am I trusting, really? God, or the man who speaks for him? But that's probably best left for a different topic.

[Ranjr]

I don't have time or inclination to write it out.  Read about Greek Logos or "the Word" and Jewish "Wisdom."  Platonism meets Judaism to create Jesus, the Word of God, the means by which God is knowable to us lowly creatures.

The Holy Spirit is more difficult to pin down.  Early on, it was simply the presence of God.  Later, it seemed to become the means by which God knows us, our every thought and action.  

The trinity is an example of kluge in religion, something I will take time to write about before too long.

[brewer]

Sorry, I can't discuss this............. seriously.

[HappySkeptic]

"It's a mystery"

I was going to explain how the Trinity are 3 different ways in which we experience God, but then the bible says that the 3 were always part of God, so that means they have nothing to do with our perception. They always were objectively real. Jesus and the holy spirit were with the Father, and the 3 were co-creators of the universe.

This makes no sense to me at all. The Trinity is some bad Platonism combined with popular savior/demigod mythology.

[GrandizerII]

The official doctrine of the Trinity goes like this:

God is one in being (so monotheism, not tritheism or a family of Gods, such as in Mormonism).

Nevertheless, God is three Persons in one Being. The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Each Person is like a "full entity" (so not components or parts of God but each is fully God).

The Persons are distinct from one another but not separate.

The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, yet the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit, the Son neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit neither the Father nor the Son.

The Persons are not aspects or modes of God (this is called modalism and is a heresy according to the mainstream Church[es]). And they are each fully God.

That's the ontological Trinity. Each equal in divine essence.

It gets even trickier when you start talking about the role of each of the Persons. The Father is greater than the Son in what sense? Does the Holy Spirit proceed from the Father and the Son, or the Father through the Son (filioque)? And other such questions.

Don't forget the bit about Jesus (the Son in flesh) being both fully God and fully human (hypostatic union). Amusing debates ensue from this. Is Mary the mother of God, or the Lord?

And no, I don't understand any of this and think the Trinity is incoherent. No matter how I look at it, it does seem like that there isn't any meaningful distinction between Person and Being in the context of the Trinity.

[Ranjr]

From the Gospels, the Holy Spirit sired Jesus.  So the Holy Spirit is God's wang.  In all seriousness.

[zebo-the-fat]

It's just magic... don't ask questions, just accept it

[The Grand Nudger]

If we're looking for a serious discussion, we're coming at this from the wrong angle. It's not a logical puzzle to be solved and resolved to sense.