(February 1, 2018 at 6:12 am)Grandizer Wrote:(January 31, 2018 at 9:17 pm)SteveII Wrote: While I doubt your intentions are for mutual understanding, here goes...
I've been there before (believing in the Trinity and defending it back as a Christian). Nothing further for me to understand. This is more of a challenge for theists to step up to the stage and give me their best shot at defending the Trinity as logical. That's if you're a Trinitarian Christian, I mean.
Judging from your posts in general, if you thought you understood a Christian doctrine "back in the day", then it is almost certain that you did not. As is the case here.
Quote:Quote:Your Father, Son, Holy Spirit statements are wrong and an obvious attempt to write into your question your conclusion.
Bullshit. This is mainstream Trinitarian belief. If you have a different conception of the Trinity, then that's your choice, but it doesn't reflect the traditional conception of the Trinity.
Everything I have said is consistent with a standard view on the Trinity. Nothing you said is. From the very first paragraph of the Wikipedia article:
Quote:The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from trinus, "threefold")[2] holds that God is three consubstantial persons[3] or hypostases[4]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[5] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[6][7][8] The opposing view is referred to as Nontrinitarianism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Quote:Quote:God is one thing. One soul. Even saying Jesus is God is technically wrong because Jesus =/= God. The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit = God.
Oh, I see, another heretic.
Join Huggy's club then.
I will grant that Huggy is not describing the traditional concept of the trinity.
Quote:Quote:God is a soul. What is a soul? The soul or mind is an immaterial or spiritual substance that makes you you (the "I" when you refer to yourself). It is not equal to your brain but relies on it in our present state much like a computer software relies on computer hardware. The soul holds our consciousness, which includes our intellect and volition which allow us to be self-reflective and capable of self determination. I believe like J. P. Moreland that there are various type of souls--from a basic animal with simple reasoning abilities to Chimpanzees with richer capabilities, to humans with even more, to God at the pinnacle.
We experience that each of us has a soul/mind equipped with advanced rational cognitive faculties that we say is sufficient for personhood. God is one soul with three complete sets of rational cognitive faculties with three centers of self-consciousness, intentionality, and will. One immaterial soul containing three distinct persons. There are interesting attributes this creates like God is a relational being and is capable of relational interactions--even within himself (much like we are better people having relationships with other persons).
But other persons I have relationships with and I are not one and the same being, are we? Furthermore, even if we were all the same being, then how can this be if I am not any of them, and none of them are me?
No, you and your buddies are not the same person. Neither is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You are not going to find a perfect analogy--there isn't one.
Quote:Of course, if you don't accept the mainstream conception of the Trinity, then what I'm arguing here won't apply, but then you're NOT a mainstream Trinitarian Christian. And if you say that Jesus being God is wrong, then that would be a heresy according to the mainstream Christian circles.
As I pointed out above, I am mainstream--just more detailed because I thought you wanted to have a discussion.
I never said that "Jesus being God is wrong". I said that you "technically" can't say that Jesus = God. A component does not equal its whole.
Quote:Like I said above, it is you who don't understand even what the mainstream concept is.Quote:While I am not going to say this is the absolute right way to view the trinity, it does counter any claims of being incoherent or illogical.
The way you're arguing this, sure. But that's not the Trinity conception described in the OP, which is based on mainstream Christian belief (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant).