RE: The Trinity Doctrine: Help me out, Christians
February 1, 2018 at 4:07 pm
(This post was last modified: February 1, 2018 at 4:14 pm by GrandizerII.)
(February 1, 2018 at 11:55 am)SteveII Wrote:(February 1, 2018 at 6:12 am)Grandizer Wrote: I've been there before (believing in the Trinity and defending it back as a Christian). Nothing further for me to understand. This is more of a challenge for theists to step up to the stage and give me their best shot at defending the Trinity as logical. That's if you're a Trinitarian Christian, I mean.
Judging from your posts in general, if you thought you understood a Christian doctrine "back in the day", then it is almost certain that you did not. As is the case here.
The authority on the Christian faith thus speaketh, the one who believes Jesus is only a part of God.
Quote:Everything I have said is consistent with a standard view on the Trinity. Nothing you said is. From the very first paragraph of the Wikipedia article:
Quote:The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from trinus, "threefold")[2] holds that God is three consubstantial persons[3] or hypostases[4]—the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons". The three Persons are distinct, yet are one "substance, essence or nature" (homoousios).[5] In this context, a "nature" is what one is, whereas a "person" is who one is.[6][7][8] The opposing view is referred to as Nontrinitarianism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Not that Wikipedia is the go-to source for a complicated topic like this, but nevertheless, here's what the next paragraph which you did not quote says:
Quote:According to this central mystery of most Christian faiths, there is only one God in three Persons: while distinct from one another in their relations of origin (as the Fourth Council of the Lateran declared, "it is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds")[9] and in their relations with one another, they are stated to be one in all else, co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and each is God, whole and entire.[10]
Note the bold. This is contrary to what you believe. If each Person of God is just a part of God, then none of them are God, whole and entire.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church itself (again, note the bold):
Quote: 253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/ar...s2c1p2.htm
(February 1, 2018 at 12:11 pm)SteveII Wrote:(February 1, 2018 at 7:18 am)Grandizer Wrote: From the Nicene Creed, which all mainstream Christians are to believe in if they want to avoid being called heretics.
As you can see, it clearly says Jesus is God. So SteveII saying my description of the Trinity is wrong because I said such things as the Son is fully the one God, is not supported by the Nicene Creed itself. If SteveII himself does not follow that Creed, that doesn't change the fact that most other Christians do, and it doesn't mean that my description in the OP is wrong.
Actually it says exactly what I said: that Jesus is part of God. If you go to the other parts of the Nicene Creed, you will see that the Father and the Holy Spirit described as part of God too. Read it in its entirety and carefully, it's all there. Clearly all three are described as God.
Where? Are we reading the same thing? Jesus is true God, not a part of the true God.
(February 1, 2018 at 1:07 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I'd like to say that I'd expect a believer to have a more complete view of christology, but that wouldn't be true. They're predictably interested in their own cults christology t the exclusion of others.
The nicene creed was specifically formulated for a cultural syncretism of the triune god peculiar to catholicism in the 300's. It nevertheless remains the fact that the majority of christians do not believe in the trinity, or accept that the divine can be meaningfully split into pieces. To them, god is whole and unviolable and one, not three. Jesus -is- god, not a part of god. Cutting the baby in half, or in this case..thirds... is the inherent paganism in christianity talking...and that was the whole point of making the creed formal anyway..even if it can't help but drink from the same well. It's a meaningfully self refuting statement of faith, but that's the nature of faith.
It's convoluted mess, that's for sure. That's the point of the OP.
