(February 2, 2018 at 10:33 am)Grandizer Wrote:(February 2, 2018 at 9:52 am)SteveII Wrote: I have no idea what you are rambling about with "abstract nature".
Your continued foot stomping that the concept of the Trinity is illogical seems to come from your preconceived notion that it is, so no one could possibly explain it in a logical manner. In your silly quest, you keep finding phrases that you think help you--which ironically always follow other phrases that explain it pretty well. The latest attempt involves finding a statement that says "it's a mystery". So what? We have no example anywhere to compare it to so the concept is mysterious. No where in the entire quote does it even imply that the Trinity is illogical. In fact, it does the opposite. Hard to comprehend =/= illogical.
I quoted that one to show the clear contrast between Christians like you and Christians like the one quoted. One is humble about their human limitations, the other is not.
Historically, the Trinity doctrine was brought forth in spite of its incomprehensibility, not because it makes sense.
Right here. This is were you go off an insert your simplistic understanding, bad definitions, and preconceived notions of the Trinity into the discussion. The doctrine of the Trinity is constructed around what has been revealed. There is nothing 'incomprehensible' about the doctrine. Not able to fully comprehend how it works is a simple fact because we do not have examples of it in our experience. But the fact that God is one essence but three persons is not 'incomprehensible' nor does it come close to not making sense.
Quote:It was meant to reconcile the observed contradictions in the Bible, where on one hand, you had passages saying God is one, and other passages alluding to Jesus as being divine in some fashion. This was partly prompted by the theological battle that went on between Arius and Athanasius and co.
Fact of the matter, Steve, is that it's meant to defy logic. It's the only way they could reconcile the perceived contradictions.
Again with the definitions. It in no way whatsoever "defies logic". One indivisible entity (God) consisting of three persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) contains no contradictions. It defies our experience. It is hard to comprehend how it works. But your argument is one whole question-begging mess.
Quote:So when you try to make it logical, you are no longer adhering to that same doctrine you think you're defending.
You only assert that the Trinity is (and was meant to be--somehow) illogical. You have not shown us how--at all. Except to phrase your OP intentionally so it was. Your response to my first post was that I was not mainstream. Yet I am--I was just being more detailed and you were not expecting the detail nor knew how to respond to it.
Quote:The official creeds/texts on this matter are clear that God is one Being (Entity) and that the Persons of God aren't "parallel" to each other.
This might be your problem. They are different persons who have actions/duties ascribed to them that are not the same as the actions/duties ascribed to the other members of the Godhead.
Quote:They are ontologically one and the same.
In one way--that the all are one essence (God). In the personhood question, they are not ontologically the same.
Quote: God is not some abstract attribute or abstract collective of the divine Persons. God is not greater than the totality of the Persons or even any one of them. So Jesus being fully the one God is correct accordingly.
Ah, you might have seen the term "Jesus is fully God" and that is true. His divinity is the essence he shares (inseparably) with the other persons of the Godhead. The inverse is not true: that God is Jesus--because that would be incomplete. God is the three all together.
Quote:There is a reason why nowhere in those texts that you falsely believe support your personal views does it say that any of the Persons of God are just a part of God. Did you see the word "part" or similar anywhere in those texts?
Yea, the links you posted go on and on about one God in essence consisting of three persons. When discussing one of those persons, you will be discussing part of the Godhead.
Quote:The Persons of God are wholly in one another (sexual puns, anyone?), and it clearly says so in the same Catechism I partly quoted. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct as far as "personhood" goes but, in terms of substance, not only share the same nature, they are the same being (entity). Thus, my OP is accurate regarding the description of the Trinity, and the logical problems are inevitable. And you're going to have to deal with them sooner or later, if you wish to be open-minded and not shut your mind to potential truths based on logic and/or evidence.
Your key phrase "...each one being fully the one God" makes no sense. You actually worded a logical contradiction into it to make it sound so and claimed this is mainstream belief on the Trinity.