RE: The most horrifying journey, this is what doubting 'everything' does.
April 2, 2018 at 10:17 pm
(This post was last modified: April 2, 2018 at 10:18 pm by vulcanlogician.)
(April 2, 2018 at 9:37 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:(April 2, 2018 at 8:48 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Theist or nontheist, one must accept axiomatic truth. Otherwise, you can't make a single rational argument. Not accepting a single axiom means that you deny that any knowledge is possible. If you deny that any knowledge is possible, why argue anything in the first place? "Axioms do not exist" is a self-defeating position.
I don't believe in axioms, but believe knowledge is possible. And I don't believe knowledge is possible by it being an axiom.
It's self-defeating position if the point is to argue. Yeah nothing can be proven, because, anyone can say well how do you know that.
Axioms also open a way to be lazy and just assert what you don't feel like justifying to just be an axiom.
It makes it easy to do away with the journey to knowing true nature of knowledge and certainty and reflection.
What can be evident to someone can be unclear to someone else.
In my Deist years, I heavily depended on axioms being properly basic.
I don't believe anything is. You have to see what you believe based on living proof.
And that fact is not an axiom, but you realize through life experience.
You can't see the forest for the trees MK. Nobody (except self-absorbed sycophants) argues just to argue. We argue in order to get closer to the truth.
You seem to have some admiration for Socrates, so let's look at him for a moment. Socrates said, "The only thing I know is that I know nothing." Yet he still used and valued argument. Why? Because argument clarifies the case of both sides. By listening to or participating in argument, you get to learn what facts support both sides of an issue. That's why Socrates was wise to say that he knew nothing. What his statement really meant was: "I have no prejudices. I keep an open mind. I look at both sides of the argument."
Don't even think of argument as something that involves two people with differing views. Look at any truth claim: like the claim that clouds are made of water vapor. Ask yourself: What are the reasons that I accept this as the truth? And you might possibly come up with a "list of things"... a list of reasons why you accept that clouds are made of water vapor.
1) It is demonstrable that water can become vapor. (we've all noticed this phenomenon when boiling water on the stove).
2) When clouds are thick and heavy, it usually rains. (this supports the idea that clouds are made of water vapor).
3) When there are no clouds in the sky, it never rains (see above)
4) etc.
5) etc.
Okay, so this is the list of reasons why you believe that clouds are made of water vapor. But what is it a list of? It's a list of arguments. An "argument" is nothing more (or less) than a reason to believe something. If someone ever doubted that clouds are made of water vapor, your list of "reasons why you accept that clouds are made of water vapor" would be good ARGUMENTS to make against their position.
Arguments are how we get to the truth, MK. They are not just there to throw at people when we disagree with them. They are a list of reasons why we hold the position that we do.